How to avoid NEIPA oxidation?

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

Ah of course, but at home brew scale, not relevant?

 

[Sadfield]

I don't know if scale matters or not. My gut instinct is, that it can be not relevant or very relevant given the wide range of equipment and mashing techniques in homebrewing, from BIAB to All in One systems. Also, what is being brewing makes a difference. Staling in a NEIPA can be disastrous, in an old ale it can be beneficial.

 

[Braumeister]

I don’t close transfer, but I do take care, and have never had any trouble with oxidation on my NEIPAs. That said, I’ve not used as many hops or oats as you have in your recipe so I suppose they may not really be NEIPAs!
My usual kegging process is to fully clean and sanitise the keg and other equipment. The lid is put on the keg and it’s filled with CO2 to 20 psi and left to the side to stand for a few minutes. When everything is ready to go I purge the keg, open it (you can’t see right to the bottom as it’s got CO2 in the bottom of it), add half a campden tablet then carefully syphon the beer from the FV into the keg. When done the keg is filled to 60 psi with CO2 and purged 8 times, then carbonated ready to serve.
I have an NEIPA on tap at the moment that was kegged 7 weeks ago. The hop aroma and flavour has fallen somewhat but there are no signs of oxidation.
This was the recipe I used:

HOME BREW RECIPE:

Title: Benfleet NEIPA

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Specialty IPA: New England IPA
Boil Time: 45 min
Batch Size: 23 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 27.65 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.045
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.011
ABV (standard): 5.28%
IBU (tinseth): 15.07
SRM (morey): 3.33
Mash pH: 5.54

FERMENTABLES:
4 kg - Extra Pale Ale Malt (80%)
0.5 kg - Torrified Wheat (10%)
0.5 kg - Flaked Oats (10%)

HOPS:
30 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 15.07
25 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Dry Hop (High Krausen) for 9 min
25 g - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop (High Krausen) for 9 min
25 g - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Dry Hop (High Krausen) for 9 min
25 g - Simcoe, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Dry Hop (High Krausen) for 9 min
25 g - Cashmere, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.5, Use: Dry Hop (High Krausen) for 9 min

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Strike, Temp: 68 C, Time: 75 min, Amount: 20.7 L
2) Sparge, Temp: 76 C, Time: 15 min, Amount: 10.95 L
Starting Mash Thickness: 2.8 L/kg

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
0.25 each - Campden Tablets, Time: 0 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
0.25 each - Campden Tablets, Time: 0 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Sparge
4 ml - Lactic acid, Time: 0 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
2 ml - Lactic acid, Time: 0 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Sparge
8 g - Calcium Chloride (dihydrate), Time: 0 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
6 g - Calcium Chloride (dihydrate), Time: 0 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Sparge
0.5 tsp - Yeast Nutrient, Time: 5 min, Type: Other, Use: Boil
0.5 tsp - Irish Moss, Time: 10 min, Type: Fining, Use: Mash

YEAST:
Crossmyloof - Clipper
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 80%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 17.78 - 22.78 C
Fermentation Temp 20 C

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: NEIPA
Ca2: 120
Mg2: 10
Na: 26
Cl: 250
SO4: 50
HCO3: 20

View attachment 81270

Looks great, thanks for that!

 

[Braumeister]

Ascorbic acid v quickly degrades and disappears with heat - it won't survive boiling, sorry. It starts to break down at 50° and once you are over 80°C anything left will disappear in minutes. It's why cooked veg other than steamed/microwaved lose all their Vit C.

@Braumeister If I may suggest, if you really want to do an NEIPA without closed transfer:
Only do a one stage dry hop after fermentation is complete.Mix a teaspoon of Vit C (Ascorbic acid) through the dry hops, and add the combined mix at no more than 18°C and chill to near zero over the course of no more than 3 days. This will give time for hop extraction but the cooler temperature slows oxidation. This will only work if during this time your airlock is connected to a CO2 reserve/balloon/pressure to avoid draw back of air as it chills. Then transfer to a purged keg.

Thanks @DocAnna, I was thinking I might skip the cold crash to avoid the drawback, but I have been looking up Mylar balloons on Amazon to use like @Buffers brewery

 

[Braumeister]

I don’t close transfer, but I do take care, and have never had any trouble with oxidation on my NEIPAs. That said, I’ve not used as many hops or oats as you have in your recipe so I suppose they may not really be NEIPAs!
My usual kegging process is to fully clean and sanitise the keg and other equipment. The lid is put on the keg and it’s filled with CO2 to 20 psi and left to the side to stand for a few minutes. When everything is ready to go I purge the keg, open it (you can’t see right to the bottom as it’s got CO2 in the bottom of it), add half a campden tablet then carefully syphon the beer from the FV into the keg. When done the keg is filled to 60 psi with CO2 and purged 8 times, then carbonated ready to serve.
I have an NEIPA on tap at the moment that was kegged 7 weeks ago. The hop aroma and flavour has fallen somewhat but there are no signs of oxidation.
This was the recipe I used:

HOME BREW RECIPE:

Title: Benfleet NEIPA

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Specialty IPA: New England IPA
Boil Time: 45 min
Batch Size: 23 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 27.65 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.045
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.051
Final Gravity: 1.011
ABV (standard): 5.28%
IBU (tinseth): 15.07
SRM (morey): 3.33
Mash pH: 5.54

FERMENTABLES:
4 kg - Extra Pale Ale Malt (80%)
0.5 kg - Torrified Wheat (10%)
0.5 kg - Flaked Oats (10%)

HOPS:
30 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 15.07
25 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Dry Hop (High Krausen) for 9 min
25 g - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop (High Krausen) for 9 min
25 g - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Dry Hop (High Krausen) for 9 min
25 g - Simcoe, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Dry Hop (High Krausen) for 9 min
25 g - Cashmere, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.5, Use: Dry Hop (High Krausen) for 9 min

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Strike, Temp: 68 C, Time: 75 min, Amount: 20.7 L
2) Sparge, Temp: 76 C, Time: 15 min, Amount: 10.95 L
Starting Mash Thickness: 2.8 L/kg

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
0.25 each - Campden Tablets, Time: 0 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
0.25 each - Campden Tablets, Time: 0 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Sparge
4 ml - Lactic acid, Time: 0 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
2 ml - Lactic acid, Time: 0 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Sparge
8 g - Calcium Chloride (dihydrate), Time: 0 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
6 g - Calcium Chloride (dihydrate), Time: 0 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Sparge
0.5 tsp - Yeast Nutrient, Time: 5 min, Type: Other, Use: Boil
0.5 tsp - Irish Moss, Time: 10 min, Type: Fining, Use: Mash

YEAST:
Crossmyloof - Clipper
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 80%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 17.78 - 22.78 C
Fermentation Temp 20 C

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: NEIPA
Ca2: 120
Mg2: 10
Na: 26
Cl: 250
SO4: 50
HCO3: 20

View attachment 81270

The single dry hop addition at high krausen I think is what I’ll do too, to avoid opening the FV twice and if it’s still fermenting then I guess that will help remove any oxygen that got it at that point. Am tempted to add some wheat like your recipe too.

 

[The Baron]

I have never had a problem with Neipa's just being ultra careful with standard brewing practices but I may just be lucky too and would suggest any brewer to use anything in their arsenal/method when doing Neipa's as they can be tricky buggers

 

[DocAnna]

Thanks @DocAnna, I was thinking I might skip the cold crash to avoid the drawback, but I have been looking up Mylar balloons on Amazon to use like @Buffers brewery

At the risk of a bit of shameless self promotion of a post
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/...-co2-collection-bruloonlock.89874/post-951982

 

[Braumeister]

Ok call me stupid but I’m going to give it go and I’ve got the water warming up. I know there’s a chance I’ll be chucking the whole lot down the sink at some point but at least it’ll be an experiment to see what is and isn’t possible with my setup. I’ll try this one without any additions like ascorbic acid or smb but will try and be very careful at dry hopping and transfer. I might try the Mylar balloon though for cold crash, thanks for the link @DocAnna.

 

[Braumeister]

For cold crashing, what are peoples thoughts on connecting a keg filled with co2 to the airlock on the FV? I’m thinking it would be the same as using a balloon, so co2 would get sucked in to the FV?

 

[Agentgonzo]

For cold crashing, what are peoples thoughts on connecting a keg filled with co2 to the airlock on the FV? I’m thinking it would be the same as using a balloon, so co2 would get sucked in to the FV?

It would. But if it's a sealed keg, you probably want to account for the pressure drop when it's cooled. If it's a sealed system, you risk damaging your FV with the negative pressure

 

[Braumeister]

It would. But if it's a sealed keg, you probably want to account for the pressure drop when it's cooled. If it's a sealed system, you risk damaging your FV with the negative pressure

Yes I see, so because the co2 is the keg is under pressure that would be bad for my FV as it’s not pressure rated. Maybe I could fill the keg with CO2 at only 1 or 2 psi?

 

[Agentgonzo]

Yes I see, so because the co2 is the keg is under pressure that would be bad for my FV as it’s not pressure rated. Maybe I could fill the keg with CO2 at only 1 or 2 psi?

Oh, of the keg is pressured (but not too much) then it'll be fine

 

[Buffers brewery]

For cold crashing, what are peoples thoughts on connecting a keg filled with co2 to the airlock on the FV? I’m thinking it would be the same as using a balloon, so co2 would get sucked in to the FV?

Nah. If you’re going to do it properly you need a balloon cos as the gas is sucked into the fermentation bucket as the beer cools and absorbs CO2 you want the balloon to collapse. Using a keg will create a negative pressure in the fermentation bucket and suck air in through the lid join.
You’ve got a couple of weeks before you need to cold crash, plenty of time to get a balloon from Amazon

 

[The Baron]

Nah. If you’re going to do it properly you need a balloon cos as the gas is sucked into the fermentation bucket as the beer cools and absorbs CO2 you want the balloon to collapse. Using a keg will create a negative pressure in the fermentation bucket and suck air in through the lid join.
You’ve got a couple of weeks before you need to cold crash, plenty of time to get a balloon from Amazon

As Buffers has said the low pressure you would need in the corny is generally not enough to seat the seal properly and will let the co2 out or allow air in

 

[Clarence]

Ferment the beer in one of your cornies with a spunding valve fitted. When ready, refit the normal top apparatus and dispense as usual. No transfer necessary and no matter how unoxidised it is, you want to drink it fresh so no danger of yeast autolysis.
Tried the stuff once (Brewdog). Never again. But if you must, then you must.

 

[Buffers brewery]

Ferment the beer in one of your cornies with a spunding valve fitted. When ready, refit the normal top apparatus and dispense as usual. No transfer necessary and no matter how unoxidised it is, you want to drink it fresh so no danger of yeast autolysis.
Tried the stuff once (Brewdog). Never again. But if you must, then you must.

Nice idea @Clarence the only challenge is an NEIPA has a large dry hop, +200 grms of hop, that need to be added during fermentation.

 

[The Baron]

Me personally I would go the way Clarence has suggested which means no transfer but with a slight risk with the dry hop. Maybe flushing the keg whilst open and flushing the hops in a plastic bag with co2 so that when dropped in speedily the hops should not introduce much oxygen. This have to be a well planned transfer of hops so the time of exposure is minimal

 

[Sadfield]

Nice idea @Clarence the only challenge is an NEIPA has a large dry hop, +200 grms of hop, that need to be added during fermentation.

Yep. I wouldn't fancy pulling any of that through a corny poppet.

 

[The Baron]

Could use one of the floating dip tubes maybe

 

[JockyBrewer]

I’ve had lots of success with mega hoppy beers, and I don’t pressure transfer.

The keys things are:

Keep the fermenter sealed up with an airlock when fermenting. Don’t open it to check what is going on.

When you dry hop, you can just crack the lid open, throw in the hops and then close it again.

For mega hoppy beers I also dry hop in the keg. Putting them in a hop sock works fine, but I’ve also built a filter for the dip tube so I can dry hop loose in the keg.

If you’re cold crashing the fermenter then I highly recommend using a Mylar balloon partially filled with CO2 in place of the airlock.

Before transferring to the keg, purge it with CO2 - and by that I mean fill it with water/starsan and then push that out with CO2.

When you come to transfer, you can fill through the liquid out post of the keg if you want to, but I’ve found that unnecessary.

I have a tap at the bottom of my fermenter, and just run a length of tubing from that into the bottom of the keg, and I temporarily cover the keg lid opening around the tubing with some foil.
The CO2 doesn’t all immediately escape - there’s plenty enough to cover the beer while transferring, and obviously it is getting pushed out continuously by the rising liquid level. Just don’t stand around too long - the moment you’re done transferring get that lid on and some CO2 in the keg.

If you can fill the keg to the brim then that’s best, you’ll just need to blow a little out or your beer will struggle to carbonate.