Horrible Tasting Beer

[Madferret]

Hello, I've made a few beers/ciders and even the odd wine from kits over the last couple of years.

So I decided to do something a bit 'different' and see if I could make a really strong lager but still using a kit. The kit was a young lager kit, which although not the best. I got at a discount.

The result was a really awful beer.... Now I wasn't expecting anything amazing but this wasn't drinkable at all and I was wondering.

1) Was it the kit (it was discounted) I don't think it was out of date but I didn't check and it's canned so I wouldn't have thought it could be that bad.

2) Was it the local temp, which was 25-27C some days.

3) Was it the high alcohol content, I've used 2kgs/20L with cider and that was better than standard of 1.2Kgs. I used 3Kg in this lager (which should've ended up 9-10%)

Now it acted unusual from the start this one started foaming within 6hrs then just stopped, to which I tried some wine yeast I had left over (which I've tried in other things too) and it started off again and stopped yet again. Anyway I finally got the sugar converted to alcohol, checking with the hydrometer, but I noticed an oily layer, which I've never had ever.

So any ideas to help prevent this in future, and also is a 9-10% lager a feasible goal with standard yeast?

Regards
Nick

 

[anthonyUK]

Hi,
You have gone against the recommendations at just about every stage I'm afraid.

1. This isn't the best kit to start with but not the root of the problem.
2. For a stout or possibly an ale you might be able to get away with those temps but a lager, no.
3. The rule of thumb is to keep sugar (I'm guessing you are talking about sugar here) to a max of 10%. You have approx. 70% assuming a 1.5Kg can of extract.

I've just got to ask why you want a 9% Lager?

 

[wilsoa1111]

Right having had a go at some high abv ciders in the past like yourself im guessing it was a combination of the second 2, anything above 24 degrees and it gets funky due to fusel alcohols. however if left in bottle it may improve in a year like other strong wines and beers. If for some reason u have a go at this again, not sure why u would other than rocket fuel like properties :wha: i would do the following things:

go for a clean fermenting ale yeast if the temps cant be controlled with all or half the sugar or use a lager yeast with half the sugar at sensible tempsr -enough for 5% with a bit less water. (gives nice lagery/beery taste) then when its almost done add some youngs dried champagne yeast (v clean fermenting to 18%) and the remaining sugar, similar to what high abv belgian ale recipes do. This may make the lager a tad dry but i find this counters the ridiculus abv and equipment permitting could always be sorbated and force carbed, or sugar solution added on serving (i do the latter)

 

[wilsoa1111]

Also i know from exp that lager type things of this abv can be rather good like Jupiler Tauro 8.3% a lager/pils thing, and i can see the appeal but i reckon it requires more experimentation than i currently want to do just getting my all grain on

 

[calumscott]

anthony's right...

The sheer scale of the ferementation at that temperature is going to almost guarantee fusel alcohol (otherwise known as fusel oils because of their size and oily nature) this could explain the film.

Youngs kits are OK but not the best. So you'd get an OK beer brewed per the instructions. Dumping in three times the required sugar and brewing short will produce lots of alcohol for sure, but that is going to kill off all the bittering and flavour in the kit.

I'm also guessing you used granulated table sugar and many people say that it can introduce winey off-flavours to beer. Wine yeast will undoubtedly add winey flavours to beer...

If you want to produce a mental lager, start with a two can pilsner kit as you'll have more flavour to stand up to the alcohol. Don't use sugar but use extra light DME instead. Get extra hops, something like saaz or hallertauer and boil up a big hop tea to use as the top up water. Then make sure it stays really cool, if you use an ale yeast somewhere around 18 degrees and if you go for a lager yeast somewhere around 12 (IIRC).

Then at that sort of ABV you'll want it to condition in bulk for a while, weeks certainly, preferably at near zero degrees temperature. Then you'll probably want to bottle condition for the best part of a year at that ABV...

 

[zgoda]

~7% ABV lagers (and higher) such as bocks, Baltic porters and doppelbocks require loooong maturation, up to a year.

But at the very beginning you have to have healthy fermentation and enough yeast to handle such high gravity without too much stress for yeast.

 

[Wendy1971]

hi and welcome to the forum great advice given on here :thumb:

 

[RobWalker]

wine yeast, excessive sugar, high temps...I would be tempted to chuck it

 

[Madferret]

Thanks for the replies guys.

So it seemed I did everything wrong with this one.

One thing was hinted here though that I don't realise (unless I misunderstood). Does the fermentation process actually create heat too? As the temps I gave were just room temps, if so I would imagine that the fermentation yelps were even higher at some stage as it was a very vigorous initial fermentation (until it died). It could explain why my previous 7% cider went without a hitch. As it was done in winter.

Calumscott: Thanks for the advice on getting a working one going. I'll give that a go next.

I have to admit I haven't really gone technical with brewing, as usually I just use a kit. One I do like is the EDME Irish stout, it seems to brew reliably everytime and tastes good with only a few weeks maturation (although longer does seem better).

I think I will have to bin this one though as its just awful and I don't fancy going blind either :)

With the sugar content, are you saying to add a little at a time, so that the initial concentration isn't as strong? I've actually done this in the past with reasonable results.

Also if someone can suggest a good lager kit, as I've been disappointed 3 times with the youngs one. I quite like Stella Artois and kronenburg (ie French gassey ones).

As for why I wanted a 9% lager, hmm well it's summer and I wanted a sipping lager. :)

Regards
Nick

 

[anthonyUK]

Hi Nick,
It isn't a true lager but the Coopers APA made with the recommended brew enhancer which is a mix of brewing sugar and DME comes out like a tasty Stella.
Pretty much any of the Coopers lager or pilsner kits are good but some have a true lager yeast so will need low temps of 12'c ish.

 

[wilsoa1111]

If u like stella i think u would like brewferms pils kit, all i did was add 1kg of brewing sugar (for the 20 litre option, they say u get 12l of darker better lager if u dont add sugar) and it turned out a real beauty, i fermented it at room temp but it worked despite it being a lager yeast, probably also helped i left it in a cool garage in bottles after for 2 months+

 

[EskiBrew]

One thing was hinted here though that I don't realise (unless I misunderstood). Does the fermentation process actually create heat too?

You have not misunderstood - while fermenting, the yeast can give off quite a bit of heat :thumb:

 

[calumscott]

Calumscott: Thanks for the advice on getting a working one going. I'll give that a go next.

:hmm: I've just used that technique to make a Russian Imperial Stout at about 12%...

Two can kit: £23
Liquid Malt Extract: £10
Spraymalt: £4
Muscovado Sugar: £2
Yeast: £7
Hops: £4

Thats about £50 for an 18 litre brew...

Stout is a good place to start I reckon because you've got a hell of a lot of flavour and texture to hide behind. Lager styles? Flaws will be very obvious and £50 for sh*t brew isn't good...

 

[Madferret]

Just thought I do an update,

I cracked open a bottle last night, it's about a month since the bottling and surprisingly it not that hideous now, despite the fact it's stupidly strong. I'm hoping it will get even better with some proper ageing and with its current strength I can't see me opening one up so often. :)

So my next question is how long do you think it would last before it starts tasting worse again? ie What do you reckon it's perfect age would be?

 

[fbsf]

I'd probably go with 6ish months for that one to reach its peak...and then probably staying at that level for at least another 6 months after that.

 

[Dave1970]

If you want strong lager(ish) beers you could do a lot worse than the Brewferm kits. Made to instructions their Grand Cru gets to 8%, Diablo 7% and Tripel 9%. They're going to taste better than adding extra sugar to a standard kit.
I reckon yours will be at it's best between 1&2 years, it might start to lose some hop aroma as it ages but I guess there isn't much of that anyway.

 

[Madferret]

If you want strong lager(ish) beers you could do a lot worse than the Brewferm kits. Made to instructions their Grand Cru gets to 8%, Diablo 7% and Tripel 9%. They're going to taste better than adding extra sugar to a standard kit.
I reckon yours will be at it's best between 1&2 years, it might start to lose some hop aroma as it ages but I guess there isn't much of that anyway.

Thanks for those suggestions I'll give those a go. :)

 

[Aleman]

Another alternative is a Barons Premium Kit made up to 11L instead of 23 will give you a good bock strength

 

[PD]

quote

Barons Premium Kit made up to 11L instead of 23


I hope you realise how that hurts a Yorkshireman..... :shock:

 

[pittsy]

quote

Barons Premium Kit made up to 11L instead of 23


I hope you realise how that hurts a Yorkshireman..... :shock:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: