Home made Candi Sugar

[Chippy_Tea]

Don't tell Roddy :lol:

 

[BeerCat]

Hope this is interesting...

Brewer's invert sugar
​

Ragus invert sugar


http://www.ragus.co.uk/product_category/custom-formulations/


Why doesn't the company package it's products in a way that would be useful to home brewers? I'm sure there would be a market.

“Shut up about Barclay Perkins” Blog

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/refined-sugar-vs-invert-sugar.html

Offers the opinion that it (possibly) isn't because the sugar is inverted, it's because the brewing sugar products are made with raw cane sugar.


The above is interesting in another way… If it's true that it isn't possible to use raw beet sugar, Belgian Candi sugar must be made from pure white sugar. Belgium is a huge producer of beet sugar so one would assume they use this for their beers.


This blogger describes a method (already covered in this thread) of inverting sugar. However, he? also suggests it's possible to create invert syrups by combining golden syrup and blackstrap molasses in differing proportions. I have no idea whether Blackstrap and black treacle are similar.


http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert


This post, on another forum, from 2011, is food for thought and I tend to agree with what he has to say.

http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42824

This one throws a big spanner in the works for homemade Candi sugar. This person asserts you need to get Maillard reactions going in your beer so you need to chuck in a strong alkali.


http://ryanbrews.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html

Only just noticed this Rob. Thanks an interesting read. Have to have another read tomorrow but the jist of it is if i am correct is that refined white sugar is not suitable?
I did notice the last lot i made melted at room temp. Have just made a new batch so will get some out of the freezer and see what happens. Got the correct colour this time at least. Gonna be using it in a Troi Pistoles clone.

 

[HebridesRob]

Only just noticed this Rob. Thanks an interesting read. Have to have another read tomorrow but the jist of it is if i am correct is that refined white sugar is not suitable?
I did notice the last lot i made melted at room temp. Have just made a new batch so will get some out of the freezer and see what happens. Got the correct colour this time at least. Gonna be using it in a Troi Pistoles clone.

I think, if you're making Candi sugar you can only really use refined white because that's the only sugar the Belgians would use - on the assumptions they would use Beet sugar and that the by-products of making sugar from sugar beet are inedible.

The bigger question is whether you should use a strong alkali to make the sugar, rather than an acid, because you need (or do you?) Maillard reactions to make authentic candi sugar.

 

[IainM]

I think, if you're making Candi sugar you can only really use refined white because that's the only sugar the Belgians would use - on the assumptions they would use Beet sugar and that the by-products of making sugar from sugar beet are inedible.

The bigger question is whether you should use a strong alkali to make the sugar, rather than an acid, because you need (or do you?) Maillard reactions to make authentic candi sugar.

Nope, Maillard reaction is between sugars and proteins. Here it is inversion for a white candi, and inversion and caramelisation for dark candi, and both are sped up by acid.

 

[HebridesRob]

Nope, Maillard reaction is between sugars and proteins. Here it is inversion for a white candi, and inversion and caramelisation for dark candi, and both are sped up by acid.

This person says differently. Amino acids do appear to be part of the process.
http://ryanbrews.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html

 

[IainM]

This person says differently. Amino acids do appear to be part of the process.
http://ryanbrews.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html

I used a different recipe, which doesn't add the yeast nutrient. You're right though, there are a few recipes which do.

 

[dad_of_jon]

the thing with making syrup would be whats the fermentable %age with sugar it's like 100% with syrup how much water vs sugar?

candi sugar is a bitch to dissolve, a rolling pin and some heavy metal or industrial metal music is required to smash the candi sugar into smaller pieces.

:-o

unless you're an ace at making candi sugar i'd suggest buying it in or using golden syrup instead. gs is a PARTIALLY inverted sugar so a bit of a half way house

 

[HebridesRob]

the thing with making syrup would be whats the fermentable %age with sugar it's like 100% with syrup how much water vs sugar?

candi sugar is a bitch to dissolve, a rolling pin and some heavy metal or industrial metal music is required to smash the candi sugar into smaller pieces.

:-o

unless you're an ace at making candi sugar i'd suggest buying it in or using golden syrup instead. gs is a PARTIALLY inverted sugar so a bit of a half way house

I'm pretty sure that the reasons given for the benefits of invert sugar are apocryphal, so if I was going to make a Trippel I wouldn't be spending a fortune on non-coloured candi sugar when granulated sugar is a fraction of the price. I might be persuaded to use golden syrup if I thought there might be a flavour benefit but not for the invert sugar aspect.

 

[dad_of_jon]

I'm pretty sure that the reasons given for the benefits of invert sugar are apocryphal, so if I was going to make a Trippel I wouldn't be spending a fortune on non-coloured candi sugar when granulated sugar is a fraction of the price. I might be persuaded to use golden syrup if I thought there might be a flavour benefit but not for the invert sugar aspect.

there's a chemical difference between the two and inverted sugar is easier on the yeast to digest, as to the difference that makes well i've never tried the cheaper option of GS and have followed the example of Belgian brewers and used CS and have been well pleased with the results.

I'd agree that clear candi sugar has less complexity than the coloured variety and in that case GS is a reasonable compromise. I've used clear candi, GS, dark candi and t&l black treacle they each give their own twist, although the black treacle is the most overpowering of the lot :-o

on that note i've had quite a lot of candi tonight in my brews, so off to bed methinks :whistle:

11% x 750ml, 9.2% x 330ml & 10.37% x 330ml

 

[jceg316]

I'm pretty sure that the reasons given for the benefits of invert sugar are apocryphal, so if I was going to make a Trippel I wouldn't be spending a fortune on non-coloured candi sugar when granulated sugar is a fraction of the price. I might be persuaded to use golden syrup if I thought there might be a flavour benefit but not for the invert sugar aspect.

I've used clear candi sugar and caster sugar in separate brews, the candi sugar batches come out a lot nicer. I've not tried golden syrup in a brew, I probably won't in a while because I like making my own candi sugar. I know there are some other forum members who swear by GS and say there's no difference between it and candi.

 

[HebridesRob]

I've used clear candi sugar and caster sugar in separate brews, the candi sugar batches come out a lot nicer. I've not tried golden syrup in a brew, I probably won't in a while because I like making my own candi sugar. I know there are some other forum members who swear by GS and say there's no difference between it and candi.

I can see the point of using the coloured varieties of candi sugar because I can understand they add taste and colour. I don't see how light coloured candi sugar would make any difference.
I've been searching to see if I can find any research on this. All I can come up with is some brewers believe that Sucrase - the enzyme released by yeast to break sucrose (granulated sugar) down (invert it) - causes off flavours.
The accepted theory is that pre-inverted sugar makes it easier for the yeast but I can't find any confirmation of this either.
If anyone can come up with any evidence either way, I'd like to see it.

But still, what I'd really like is for Ragus to make their brewing sugars available to the homebrewer. It still confuses me that they haven't sought to exploit this market.

 

[strange-steve]

I agree Rob, using light candi syrup is a waste of money. These are a couple of quotes from "Brew like a monk":

Today, when brewers at Westmalle and Orval refer to candi sugar, they specify using it in liquid form. Most other brewers, Trappist and secular, who once used “clear candi sugar” have replaced it with sucrose or dextrose.

After Victory Brewing Company in Downingtown, Pennsylvania, began brewing Golden Monkey, a tripel, co-owner /brewer Ron Barchet sent samples of clear candi sugar (rocks) to Archer Daniels Midland to see what sort of similar product the food processing giant could provide. “We didn’t want to be spending $2 a pound for sugar, so we asked them give us an analysis,” he said. “They told us it looks just like reconstituted sugar, and that if we wanted to match it not to buy anything from them. Buy sugar."

Start with the idea that the spirit of Belgium is to make a great beer with what we have. Then, it is almost anti-spirit to spend $2 a pound for candi sugar. The Belgians would have asked, ‘What is the cheapest sugar I have?’ and that was local sugar.

 

[The Idiot]

I tend to make Candi syrup, and my Belgians have that raisin thing as a more pronounced taste than when using everyday sugar.

The origin of Candi sugar is that it was a waste product from various production processes, and as such was of limited value. The various Abbeys took it for brewing, because it was free! The Brewers certainly didn't set out to make Candi sugar, and had it been £4 a kilo I bet they would have used something else.

Yes, you can use golden syrup or just plain old sugar, but you can also buy beer. I like making Candi syrup because I like all aspects of brewing.

 

[dad_of_jon]

sugar link....

https://byo.com/bock/item/1441-sweetness-brewing-sugars-how-to-use-them

sucrose is a di-saccharide inverting sugar breaks the sugar into 2 - mono saccharides so easier to ferment for the yeast.

so chemically there IS a difference between granulated sugar and other sugars, just as there is between bottle water and tap.

if people want to brew beer as cheap as possible that's fine, if it's drinkable then even better. proper candi sugar is fully inverted , GS partially so. we're lucky to have such a range of options to pick from and that is what's so great about brewing. bottled water and candi sugar works for me and if people think it's a waste of money that's their view but not mine.

If you notice an improvement in brews with CS over table sugar YOU decide if it's worth it or not. If you can't tell the difference it's your decision.

What I will say AGAINST candi sugar is that the rocks are a bugger to dissolve :-(

 

[strange-steve]

I've used dark homemade candi syrup and it does add a lot in terms of flavour and colour but I noticed no difference between light candi sugar (homemade or purchased) and table sugar. I've used various sugars in saisons, golden ales and quads and I think that belgian beers are so flavourful that if there is any difference it's going to be very difficult to notice.

 

[dad_of_jon]

I've used dark homemade candi syrup and it does add a lot in terms of flavour and colour but I noticed no difference between light candi sugar (homemade or purchased) and table sugar. I've used various sugars in saisons, golden ales and quads and I think that belgian beers are so flavourful that if there is any difference it's going to be very difficult to notice.

I suppose how much you use will also make a difference. I've often used 1Kg vs 2 or 3 kg versus DME.

or 500g candi and a tin of T&L GS.

 

[MyQul]

sugar link....

https://byo.com/bock/item/1441-sweetness-brewing-sugars-how-to-use-them

sucrose is a di-saccharide inverting sugar breaks the sugar into 2 - mono saccharides so easier to ferment for the yeast.

so chemically there IS a difference between granulated sugar and other sugars, just as there is between bottle water and tap.

if people want to brew beer as cheap as possible that's fine, if it's drinkable then even better. proper candi sugar is fully inverted , GS partially so. we're lucky to have such a range of options to pick from and that is what's so great about brewing. bottled water and candi sugar works for me and if people think it's a waste of money that's their view but not mine.

If you notice an improvement in brews with CS over table sugar YOU decide if it's worth it or not. If you can't tell the difference it's your decision.

What I will say AGAINST candi sugar is that the rocks are a bugger to dissolve :-(

I plan on using candi sugar for some future bitters from BYOBRA instead of the white sugar stated. Here's an interesting tip for dissolving the candi sugar

https://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/dissolving-sugar-boil-cleanly

 

[dad_of_jon]

I plan on using candi sugar for some future bitters from BYOBRA instead of the white sugar stated. Here's an interesting tip for dissolving the candi sugar

https://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/dissolving-sugar-boil-cleanly

I like that idea as long as the nylon bag doesn't melt - I've just been using the stir for a good 5-10 minute method :-(

 

[MyQul]

I like that idea as long as the nylon bag doesn't melt - I've just been using the stir for a good 5-10 minute method :-(

That's a point!

 

[jceg316]

I can see the point of using the coloured varieties of candi sugar because I can understand they add taste and colour. I don't see how light coloured candi sugar would make any difference.
I've been searching to see if I can find any research on this. All I can come up with is some brewers believe that Sucrase - the enzyme released by yeast to break sucrose (granulated sugar) down (invert it) - causes off flavours.
The accepted theory is that pre-inverted sugar makes it easier for the yeast but I can't find any confirmation of this either.
If anyone can come up with any evidence either way, I'd like to see it.

But still, what I'd really like is for Ragus to make their brewing sugars available to the homebrewer. It still confuses me that they haven't sought to exploit this market.

Granted, there may be other factors at play here, but the mouthfeel is different. It's always been better with candi sugar over granulated sugar (sucrose). As for the off flavours produced by using granulated sugar, never had them, but I think it needs to be over 20% of the malt bill for any to come through.

I do use sucrose or dextrose for other beers though. Sometimes in IIPAs I'll rather use them as they're cheaper to acquire.

I would like to do some tests to see side by side whether there is a big difference in clear candi sugar Vs table sugar/dextrose/GS for flavour or mouthfeel. But I don't want to end up with 100 litres of the same beer :lol: