herms rims or just stay as we are

[Mark1964]

was thinking of upgrading to a herms system but then read this

now im not sure does a herms really make a great difference. we get nice clear wort and modern grain doesnt really require decoction mashing any more. So what are the advantages apart from keeping your mash dead on the right temp? which we do already

 

[craigite]

I use a HERMS but wouldn't say that is the way it should be done.
For me it's an easy way to control mash temp and I also use it to raise the temp befor I start sparging.
With me most of the reason I did it was cos I wanted to. Half the fun is building the stuff

Just because u build a system doesn't mean u can go back to not using it.

if u do build one, just do it on very low budget at first.

 

[Springer]

I am about where Craig is.
For normal 25 litre brews it has its uses, but easy to get a set mash. Once you scale up by 3 say, it takes quite a lot of time to pump the liquid though the HE at a speed that will not give you a set mash. In a normal mash time its quite a proportion. :? It does allow you to replace heat loss, but the bigger you go the less significant this is. Does anyone do stepped mashes, you can't fit many into 90 minutes with herms, without fooling yourself to my way of thinking.
I do like to get the mash tun up to target temperature, which is easy with a HE.
Its all about set mashes and pumping rate, to my way of thinking :?
What I have never managed to organise is putting the grain into my temperature controlled cupboard overnight before brewing, so that final mash temp is easier to predict.
Still like messing with my HERMS :?
S

 

[Frisp]

Aw Streth I wish I hadnt read that I was all fired up to build a sooper dooper Herms... Now Im thinking Whey get complicated, the whole point is brew beer ..... Awww helll .... wot to do wot to do.....

 

[Mark1964]

the way i see it a herms just gives accurate strike temp and maintains mash temp i can do that with the set up ive got. Why spend on something that works well already

 

[Frisp]

the way i see it a herms just gives accurate strike temp and maintains mash temp i can do that with the set up ive got. Why spend on something that works well already

Im starting to think that. I could have teh brewery up and running in a month and if I design the layout right I can always plumb a HERMS in later if I so wish....

Chatting it over with my buddy this afternoon and he was suggesting that I put my effort into two conical fermenters and two fermentation cupboards. He is starting to make sense now.

 

[Aleman]

I added RIMS and HERMS to my existing setups.

I do beg to differ with the article but we can get malt that does require step mashing (Warminster floor malted Czech Pils malt being one).

Another benefit of doing say a Hochkurz mash compared to single infusion is that you can control the fermentability and attenuation and Head formation of a beer even if using a well modified malt. . . . Essential for continental beers IMO..

Yes, you can do a Hochkurz mash (or any other type of step mash) using decoctions . . . RIMS/HERMS makes it easier, cleaner, controllable and repeatable.

You can also do step mashes with Hot water additions . . .provided you have enough space in the mash tun to take the increase in mash volume . . . as as the sparge is going to be inefficient (less sparge liquor), then you need to use more grain . . . hence need a bigger mash tun.

For the majority of beers brewed, for personal consumption rather than competition then single infusion does work well.

I also find that HERMS/RIMS does not cause a stuck mash . . . yes it can, if you start the pump to fast/soon, and you use a thick mash. Jim posted a way of ensuring the mash doesn't stick, I used to use an under back and balanced the flow out of the mash tun and the pumping speed out of the under back to the HEX . . . Since building the HERMS with the restriction of the HEX coil flow rates are not a concern even using the MM809 to pump directly from the mash tun . . .I have had no stuck mashes in two years using the HERMS.

I do agree though Concentrate on temperature control for the FV before messing with a HERMS . . . that way you will at least be able to appreciate the benefits a HERMS will give you if you decide to add one later.

 

[Mark1964]

Thanks for the info Tony i think at the moment we will stick with what we have. We can get a clear wort with the equipment we have and as you say for personal consumption we do ok. We have only done one decoction mash since we started brewing and it was ok. Dont think we will be entering any competitions in the near future either. We make very decent beer now and dont see spending on a herms viable at the moment. :thumb:

 

[Springer]

So I think I need to use a thinner mash :hmm: , what is a reasonable flow rate through the H.E. and what grain to water ratio for a HERMS set up, A. :?
Don't panic Frisp, as they say you can add it later, it is nice to pump water round fast, because it's only water pre-strike to get everything up to the desired temp. (Don't forget the idea of grain at a known constant temp )
Fermentation temperature control was one of my early hits.
One I made earlier
It was so good I made another, also very useful for conditioning bottles.
Fancy PID controlled, no I bought a none SSR PID, but the cupboard is well under control. :lol:
Second one
Also a conical, took me some time, well it was the price actually :lol: to realise the benefits. Like not losing a 15 gallon brew to the fruit fly, only cleaning one vessel instead of three, no siphoning, ..........etc, etc and what clinched it for me was hopefully easier and more reliable yeast harvesting. (By my calcs at 4p a pint for yeast, the conical will be paid for in no time, :? thats what I told Mrs. S. :lol: )
S
Edit second pic and comment added.

 

[Mark1964]

we already have fermentation control etc and a beer chiller to serve the perfect beer :thumb:

 

[Swift Pint]

... and modern grain doesnt really require decoction mashing any more.

As a side note, you don't require decoction mashing for conversion, but you do get carmalisation from the process too.

Not to mention a i did a 3 decoction dunkel-weiss once, and I must say it takes ages, but its bloody good fun!!!

 

[Mark1964]

splendid

 

[Aleman]

So I think I need to use a thinner mash :hmm: , what is a reasonable flow rate through the H.E. and what grain to water ratio for a HERMS set up, A. :?

I use around 3L per Kilo . . . although I also go up to 3.5L per Kilo.

Flow rate not really measured it, but certainly around 2L per minute . . . if not more . . .what limits the flow rate on my HEX is the restriction caused by the tightly wound 10mm copper. I suppose I should measure it as at some time.

And If I go down the 15mm Stainless coil approach I will have to look at using the ball valve to slow the flow rate down.

The tricky thing is that ideally flow rate needs to be a constant as if you change that you change the heating and cooling characteristics of the HERMS system which should require retuning the PID

 

[Springer]

Thanks for that info, A.
I must measure my actual liquid content when mashing next, but I think its somewhere around your figure. Not really measured flow rate either, will do so, cos its easy to do. I have been judging mash consistancy from what I used to do pre HERMS, maybe its to dry.
So, in my case with a 75 litre brew say 15 kg of grain times 3 gives 45 litres of liquid, I have quite a sump on my mash tun, which should act as a sort of underback, below one of Muddydisco's stainless floors, so even more liquid present.
Assuming a flow of 2 litres a minute, it will take nearly twenty five minutes to get the mash tun to a new temperature, nearly a third of the mash time, am I seeing it right. :? (Do I remember correctly that most of the action takes place in the early stages of mashing, have heard it said some people only mash for 60 minutes. :? )
If so, it does stress the importance of hitting that designed mash temperature right first time, every time, to ensure consistency and then rely on the HERMS to maintain it :?
S

 

[Frisp]

Im thinking the trick is to do the usual preheat your HLT liquor to a strike temperature and then transfer to your MT then dough in and your Mash should be then close to your desired Mash Temp. The recirculation through The HX would then maintain that temp throughout the length of the mash. And a crystal clear wort is the end product

assuming 2 L a minute it would take 20 mins to do one rotation of your liquor / wort. And that is working on the assumption that 1 circulation is enough to settle your mash to the required temp.

So no matter whether its a HERMS or a conventional system the key to this seems to be.
Ensure your grain bill is at a known temperature. i.e. house temp.
calculate an accurate strike temp.
Dough in with the intention of Hitting your desired MT.

Im using a huge Thermobox. So aside form getting a crystal clear wort, and a steady as heck Mash temp.. what do I get for my money and effort?

 

[Springer]

I think you have summed it up there quite nicely Frisp,
As you say you won't get the tun up to HE temp with one cycle, so more pumping time required, than volume divided by flow,
With my old kit, a picnic box, I only lost a degree or so with a 25 litre brew, with a big volume it would be even more efficient.
I will do some more trials, but the way I am seeing it of late, is that there is little to be gained from a big flow rate if you are only trying to maintain a temperature, as you say .
It is very easy to get over complicated, I have stainless mash tun, lagged well and clad in wood, and it soaks up a lot of heat unnecessarily, a plastic tub would be just as good. :? (Does help to increase the mass to hold the temperature, but stainless is a poor conductor of heat, it takes ages to get the system into equilibrium. Maybe it robs the mash or heat :? )
If you are trying to vary the temps consider what you are really achieving in practice
As mentioned, good technique at doughing in stage is crucial. :thumb:
We need As thoughts here
S

 

[Vossy1]

I recirc my HERMS at 2.5ltr/min and have a static ball valve in the pipework set to this flow rate, as alluded to by Tony above. Before staring the recirc leave the mash to settle for at least 10 mins, starting sooner has stuck mashes for me in the past, and I use 2.5ltr/kg for the mash on the hwole

 

[evanvine]

We need As thoughts here

Won't mine do! :whistle: :whistle:
I'll just get my coat.

 

[Springer]

Think I am turning the pump on to early.
Sorry E , don't be shy we are all ears, step forward . :thumb:
S

 

[evanvine]

Sorry E , don't be shy we are all ears, step forward .

I also await the word from the Oracle!