Help choosing a wort chiller

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Before you make any changes you might like to do the science and calculate the potential cooling capacity of your chiller, surface areas, emissivity, temperature gradients, plate thickness, flow rate, Newton’s law of cooling and throw in a bit of calculus you might find out 13 minutes is the maximum. What do you think @strange-steve . Sadly no quantum mechanics in this one

 

[terrym]

Just to apply a little engineering to this thread you will achieve better more efficient heat transfer for any system by
a) Ensuring the temperature difference (or driving force) between the hot and cold liquids is as large as can be sensibly achieved. So in the case of the water side run it at full flow so the exit temperature is as low as possible
b) Run any force fed side at full capacity (turbulent flow is better than laminar flow)
c) If you have a vessel of hot liquid with a coil in it gently agitate the hot liquid to prevent boundary layers forming which will impede heat transfer
d) And any scaling on the surfaces of plate exchangers will reduce the overall heat transfer coefficient, which is why they need to be cleaned regularly unless they are on a clean service.

 

[Buffers brewery]

Remembering, of course, that engineering is merely the practical application of science and in particular physics (with a bit of maths thrown in for good measure) :hat:

 

[terrym]

Maybe so.
But most physicists would be lost designing any one of a refinery, a bridge, a power station, a telecoms network, a bottling line, a mass transit system or a pharmaceutical plant to name but a few.
So what do physicists do at a practical level?
Other than perhaps research, nuclear physics and of course teaching.
So which profession is more useful?
:hat:

 

[Buffers brewery]

Maybe so.
But most physicists would be lost designing any one of a refinery, a bridge, a power station, a telecoms network, a bottling line, a mass transit system or a pharmaceutical plant to name but a few.
So what do physicists do at a practical level?
Other than perhaps research, nuclear physics and of course teaching.
So which profession is more useful?
:hat:

I don’t know. Perhaps they spend 30 years of their working life designing and installing production machinery for single use medical devices (that save lives) or head up a multi-discipline group of production, mechanical, electrical and electronic engineers designing medical equipment for use in operating theatres (and save lives) or even represent BSI on various European Standards committees relating to medical equipment (used to save lives)? I don’t, you got any ideas? :hat:

 

[terrym]

Whoever that person is he/she ain't a physicist now that's for sure by my reckoning, although in the dim and distant past he/she may have acquired a qualification in pure physics, a degree or a doctorate perhaps.
Life moves on and many people start out doing one thing and end up doing other stuff.
Anyway, lets call it an honourable draw.
Or we'll perhaps fall out.
And we dont want that, do we, since there's more than enough vitriol on another Forum thread currently underway to keep us all going for a while and more besides.
:hat:

 

[Ghillie]

Just to apply a little engineering to this thread you will achieve better more efficient heat transfer for any system by
a) Ensuring the temperature difference (or driving force) between the hot and cold liquids is as large as can be sensibly achieved. So in the case of the water side run it at full flow so the exit temperature is as low as possible
b) Run any force fed side at full capacity (turbulent flow is better than laminar flow)
c) If you have a vessel of hot liquid with a coil in it gently agitate the hot liquid to prevent boundary layers forming which will impede heat transfer
d) And any scaling on the surfaces of plate exchangers will reduce the overall heat transfer coefficient, which is why they need to be cleaned regularly unless they are on a clean service.

a) and b) is absolutely bang on, thank god!

You know when people regurgitate stuff without understanding? Well there is a mass of that when it comes to chilling wort - colossal confusion wrt efficient cooling vs speed of cooling. Too many people regurgitating something along the lines of "cooling is better and faster when the cold medium is throttled back in order to maximise heat transfer". Really boils my blood because it is SO wrong. That is making the system more efficient, but purely in terms of how much water is used. But, this has the exact opposite effect on the rate of cooling - it slows it down. Have a Google if you want to get annoyed, it will have you banging your head against the wall

Thanks for speaking sense!

 

[Buffers brewery]

Whoever that person is he/she ain't a physicist now that's for sure by my reckoning, although in the dim and distant past he/she may have acquired a qualification in pure physics, a degree or a doctorate perhaps.
Life moves on and many people start out doing one thing and end up doing other stuff.
Anyway, lets call it an honourable draw.
Or we'll perhaps fall out.
And we dont want that, do we, since there's more than enough vitriol on another Forum thread currently underway to keep us all going for a while and more besides.
:hat:

Reminds me of a time the company I worked for was negotiating with a Russian medical equipment company. We arranged for their top brass including their principle engineer to come over for a visit and look around our facilities. As head of the Technical department I was asked what were my qualifications. I said I had a degree in Physics. The principle engineer was aghast and asked are you qualified. I explained to him that a physicist can do the job of an engineer but an engineer couldn’t do the job of a physicist! We laughed.
I accept your apology @terrym for making derogatory remarks about physicists. Line drawn

 

[eyuptm]

FWIW, here's my home brewed counterflow chiller... Knocked it up from bits I had, apart from the food grade plastic hose. The termination pieces are 15mm stop ends with 10mm holes drilled to allow the microbore through, and then soldered to seal.
Not used it as yet, so can't comment on the speed/efficiency. I did buy some 1.5mm copper wire I was going to solder to the microbore in a spiral, to encourage turbulence, but the day I was building it, I couldn't find it!!
Laid th copper through the plastic, then rolled it around a corny Keg.

 

[Ghillie]

FWIW, here's my home brewed counterflow chiller... Knocked it up from bits I had, apart from the food grade plastic hose. The termination pieces are 15mm stop ends with 10mm holes drilled to allow the microbore through, and then soldered to seal.
Not used it as yet, so can't comment on the speed/efficiency. I did buy some 1.5mm copper wire I was going to solder to the microbore in a spiral, to encourage turbulence, but the day I was building it, I couldn't find it!!
Laid th copper through the plastic, then rolled it around a corny Keg.

Good effort!

If the project didn't involve butchering all those mad plumbers bits and pieces, I'd be keen to try it. As an electrician I have a valid phobia for that stuff though...

 

[eyuptm]

Good effort!

If the project didn't involve butchering all those mad plumbers bits and pieces, I'd be keen to try it. As an electrician I have a valid phobia for that stuff though...

I'm not a plumber, but as a keen DIY'er, I have lots of stuff "in stock", so like many of us, I suspect, I'm raiding the shed looking for things to build/fix at this difficult time...

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Must be a serious waste of water at that rate. Has anyone measured the amount of water used for cooling

I use the hot outflow as my cleaning water and as it gets cool for watering but you’re right it does use a lot. Next time I do a brew I’ll see how long it takes to fill my boiler at the same flow rate and come up with an estimate.

I measured the flow rate as I filled my boiler, it took 1 minute and 50 seconds to fill my boiler with 23 litres. If my maths is right the volume of water used to cool down 25 litres of wort from boiling to pitching (at full bore, 13 minutes) is 160 litres.

 

[Ghillie]

I measured the flow rate as I filled my boiler, it took 1 minute and 50 seconds to fill my boiler with 23 litres. If my maths is right the volume of water used to cool down 25 litres of wort from boiling to pitching (at full bore, 13 minutes) is 160 litres.

Is that a big deal in England? Not entirely sure how the water charges work there?

 

[Buffers brewery]

I measured the flow rate as I filled my boiler, it took 1 minute and 50 seconds to fill my boiler with 23 litres. If my maths is right the volume of water used to cool down 25 litres of wort from boiling to pitching (at full bore, 13 minutes) is 160 litres.

Sounds about right. Doing a bit of “O” level physics (not) dropping 23 litres of water from 100 to 20 degrees C means loosing 1840000 calories in old money. Assuming your tap water is 10 degrees C would require 184000 ccs, 184 litres.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Is that a big deal in England? Not entirely sure how the water charges work there?

Me neither

 

[foxbat]

Must be a serious waste of water at that rate. Has anyone measured the amount of water used for cooling

With my immersion chiller (this one) I use a fairly constant 65 litres to get a 24 litre batch from boiling to 20-25C depending on time of year in a very tedious half an hour with constant stirring. I don't run the tap very quickly. Anglian water charge £3.08 per 1000 litres so that's 3.08/(1000/65) = 20p to cool my wort.

 

[Buffers brewery]

With my immersion chiller (this one) I use a fairly constant 65 litres to get a 24 litre batch from boiling to 20-25C depending on time of year in a very tedious half an hour with constant stirring. I don't run the tap very quickly. Anglian water charge £3.08 per 1000 litres so that's 3.08/(1000/65) = 20p to cool my wort.

In the summer months when the mains water is quite tepid down here in the sunny south, I end up putting a bag or two of ice (at £1 a pop) in a pre-chiller coil before the immersion chiller, so 20p doesn’t sound a lot! Don’t tell the extinction rebellion people

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

In the summer months when the mains water is quite tepid down here in the sunny south, I end up putting a bag or two of ice (at £1 a pop) in a pre-chiller coil before the immersion chiller, so 20p doesn’t sound a lot! Don’t tell the extinction rebellion people

Didn’t they parade naked in front of parliament? I’m gonna waste soooo much water

 

[Ghillie]

Me neither

My dearest apologies for assuming you were “one of them”.

Unless you are, but just don’t care about your water use...

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

My dearest apologies for assuming you were “one of them”.

Unless you are, but just don’t care about your water use...

Who is “them”? Someone who cares about a few pennies spent on water?