Heat pumps are they a waste of money?

[Northern_Brewer]

I can imaging in modern houses where solar is installed as part of the build (that is happening here) and walls and lofts are insulated with far better materials than we used donkeys years ago in our old houses a heat pump will do the job but for the majority of us who live in old houses they wont unless you are prepared to spend thousands of pounds and go through the upheaval of insulating lofts and cavity walls having all the pipework and radiators replaced and finding room for the water tank the easier option is to stay on gas.

You don't need to replace any pipework or radiators if you get a modern high-temperature heatpump - it produces water at the same temperature as a gas boiler, so why would you need to change any of that stuff?

The problem with retro fitting heat pumps is most uk homes aren't insulated to the degree needed to be effective.
They work better when designed into construction of new builds, air pressure tests ensure the thermal values are up to standard required.
Like solar installations finding a competent installer is key, not easy for the layman.

The insulation thing is also vastly overstated. If a house is badly insulated, then you're going to be wasting a lot of money whether it's heated by gas boiler or a heat pump - if the house is at 20C and it's 5C outside, then you lose heat, and if it's badly insulated then you'll lose heat faster.

But "most uk homes" have enough insulation. The Electrification of Heat project put heat pumps into a representative selection of 742 houses from southern England to Scotland and found that >85% of them didn't need additional insulation, and most of those that did only needed some extra loft insulation - which would have been a good idea with a gas boiler anyway. Only a small handful needed extra insulation like cavity, but it's a complete misrepresentation to think that average houses need extra insulation before installing a heatpump.

a broad spectrum of housing types (41% detached, 43% semi-detached, 11% mid-terrace, and 6% flats) and ages (68% pre-1980). Heat pumps were installed in homes with varying Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) ratings from A down to G. At least 53% of homes involved in the demonstration project had an energy efficiency rating of C or D before the heat pump installation....The Demonstration Project has provided evidence to demonstrate that the large-scale roll out of heat pumps is feasible in the UK and has evidenced that heat pumps can be installed in a wide variety of housing archetypes. Additionally, the Project found a high degree of customer satisfaction with the installation journey and the end-product.

 

[Rodcx500z]

So Rod - how exactly do you plan to make electricity in the UK?

Power stations get old and need replacing, so we'll need to pay for some kind of electricity generation kit.

But we're no longer in the 20th century where we had cheap and abundant North Sea gas - we had found pretty much all the gas in the North Sea by the end of the 1990s, production has been declining since then. As I said on the politics thread, we've spent £140bn on gas in the last three years, with a majority of that going to other countries.

If we're going to have to build new power generation anyway as kit gets old, if we're running out of gas, and if our current dependence on gas is making us poorer to the tune of £10bn's per year - why wouldn't we try and generate more electricity from domestic solar and wind? Even better - it's cheaper than gas or nuclear.

You worry a lot about people lying to you, but you should worry about the people who are lying when they say that you can continue to do things the same way that we did in the 1990s, or that tell you it's a good idea to depend on basics like energy from countries like Qatar. Germany persuaded itself that it was a good idea to become dependent on Russian gas 20 years ago, and we know how that ended up.

So Rod - how do you think we should generate our electricity?

I don't know, my main gripe is some folk on here don't believe the government is lying through it's back teeth, they just don't get the reason why we have the highest energy bills in Europe we joe public are paying for Millibands crazy green dream, being 100% green is unobtainable, yes i know and agree the climate needs to change. my x boss had a saying and it was, the chimney was smoking when i started and it will be smoking when i leave

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I don't think its 20% scaring 80% i am sure those who can afford a heat pump and who have suitable houses to fit one will have done their own research this makes me wonder why if 80% of UK could have one only 1% do.

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As before - Scandinavia lead the way on heatpumps because their electricity is cheap relative to gas, which is partly reflecting the fact they have a lot of hydro, and partly through policy choices that are the opposite of the UK when it comes to relative taxation.

And also we have propaganda rags like the Telegraph spreading misinformation about heat pumps. Which works because most people don't know someone with a heat pump. But we saw with EVs that the Telegraph tried to spread all sorts of misinformation about EVs - too little range, battery life etc - but now we have >20% of new cars being BEVs people can see through the misinformation because they can see that they work for people they know.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I don't know, my main gripe is some folk on here don't believe the government is lying through it's back teeth, they just don't get the reason why we have the highest energy bills in Europe we joe public are paying for Millibands crazy green dream, being 100% green is unobtainable, yes i know and agree the climate needs to change. my x boss had a saying and it was, the chimney was smoking when i started and it will be smoking when i leave

The main reason we have the highest energy bills in Europe as i have mentioned in the thread is we are paying £365 a year for standing charges before we use our gas or electricity and that was put in place many years before Milibands green dream!

 

[Chippy_Tea]

And also we have propaganda rags like the Telegraph spreading misinformation about heat pumps. Which works because most people don't know someone with a heat pump.

Give us a break, if you are about to dump thousands of pounds into a heat pump and solar you are not going to take advice on it from any newspaper or guy down the pub fortunately we have the internet and if you use a little common sense you will find sites that will give you all the information you need not hearsay.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Going back to my earlier post -

Assuming not all of the people in the 80% of houses in the UK that can have a heat pump are idiots who believe all the negative stuff they read in the papers or hear down the pub why is the take up on heat pumps currently only 1% and what will change that?

 

[Stu]

Going nack to my earlier post -

Assuming not all of the people in the 80% of houses in the UK that can have a heat pump are idiots who believe all the negative stuff they read in the papers or hear down the pub why is the take up od heat pumps currently only 1% and what will change that?


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I did answer this. You need to "encourage" or offer incentives.
In addition, places like Finland and Estonia are very cold (we're very mild in comparison) so they almost certainly have huge bills, which means the savings are much bigger.

If we spend (say) £300 a year on Gas and we can make a 10% saving, there's not much incentive. If they're spending £3000 a year and Gas isn't available, then it's clearly a much bigger incentive.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Going nack to my earlier post -

Assuming not all of the people in the 80% of houses in the UK that can have a heat pump are idiots who believe all the negative stuff they read in the papers or hear down the pub why is the take up od heat pumps currently only 1% and what will change that?


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Well I firstly why are we comparing ourselves to Finland? They face a completely different situation than we do in the UK so why would you think you can lift and drop whatever it is they've done there and it would work here? There are always things you can learn from others, but doesn't always mean you can apply what you've learned.

A good chunk of heat pumps in Finland are more efficient ground source heat pumps taking advantage of the country having a much lower population density than the UK and they have more space and geothermal. Also in the few built up areas they use district heating so you're only really talking about more rural areas utilising heat pumps. Air to water heat pumps, the type that are being foisted on us, are not as prevalent in Finland, though growing it seems possibly because of lower installation costs. Also most Finnish people are coming from heating their homes via oil and wood and not a mains gas infrastructure like the majority of the UK. If you are not on mains gas and relying on oil or wood heating and want to change your heating system then heat pumps are the only viable option assuming you cant get on mains gas, people in more rural parts of the UK are moving from oil to heat pumps. This is the situation my dad is in and alot of his neighbours have made the switch from oil to heat pumps. There are alot of people in rural UK that got heat pumps decades ago to get off oil long before they became a fetish of the virtue signalling liberal elite. So when a particular piece of technology offers a genuine improvement to people then you don't need government to mandate it or offer unsustainable and expensive taxpayer funded incentives...people will take it up willingly.

Maybe, just maybe heat pumps are not the best solution for alot of people in the UK. We have very densely populated conurbations where the majority of the population live, alot in older homes that lack the space and are not as suitable for heat pump installations, not without significant investment. I mean for me I'd need to spend at least £20k and mine is a relatively new and modern and well insulated home. Given I have a relatively young super efficient gas boiler that costs me naff all to run and has a good 20 years of useful service remaining I'd be stupid to ditch that and spend £20k on a heat pump....especially while gas is 4 times cheaper than electricity and is currently getting cheaper while electricity is getting more and more expensive.

And secondly why are the government pushing them...why not let individuals make their own choices? what is wrong with us these days when some tolerate and even welcome so much interference in our own lives and personal choices? They need to butt out. They made commitments at some conference somewhere without consulting the British public and then come back to foist their expensive commitments onto us who ultimately pay for them. No wonder people are a bit P'd off and reluctant. Follow the money...I suspect many MP's and public servants are shareholders in companies involved with installing this kind of tech and making a pretty penny out of the multi billion dollar industry they've created out of thin air.

 

[Appleton Brews]

Why are these Ring Wing newspapers so anti clean energy, electric vehicles, solar panels, heat pumps, and wind turbines? I bet 30 years ago they were saying smoking wasn’t bad for people.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I did answer this. You need to "encourage" or offer incentives.

We will never get incentives all we will get is a deadline and that is already in place.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Well I firstly why are we comparing ourselves to Finland?

I m not comparing ourselves to anyone screen shot edited -

 

[The Baron]

Why are these Ring Wing newspapers so anti clean energy, electric vehicles, solar panels, heat pumps, and wind turbines? I bet 30 years ago they were saying smoking wasn’t bad for people.

and the same can be said of leftie wing rags too many of their readers are activists so the cancel each other out.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

"Maybe, just maybe heat pumps are not the best solution for alot of people in the UK. We have very densely populated conurbations where the majority of the population live, alot in older homes that lack the space and are not as suitable for heat pump installations, not without significant investment. I mean for me I'd need to spend at least £20k and mine is a relatively new and modern and well insulated home. Given I have a relatively young super efficient gas boiler that costs me naff all to run and has a good 20 years of useful service remaining I'd be stupid to ditch that and spend £20k on a heat pump....especially while gas is 4 times cheaper than electricity and is currently getting cheaper while electricity is getting more and more expensive"


The above from @hoppyscotty nails what i have been trying to say and in my view its there reason take up of heat pump remains at only 1% of UK houses

 

[Agentgonzo]

I don't think its 20% scaring 80% i am sure those who can afford a heat pump and who have suitable houses to fit one will have done their own research this makes me wonder why if 80% of UK could have one only 1% do.

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So

Electricity has always been cheaper in Finland (compared to gas) due to geothermal/green energy.
UK has a history of gas (north sea gas made it cheap for us) and thus a lot of houses have gas boilers.
This means that most have a working system it costs to replace (so no real incentive to spend £££ ripping out one heating system for another)

it also means that it's "the norm" to install a boiler as thaht's what builders are familiar with. So they keep doing it. Inertia is real

 

[Leon103]

My mates house had one of those old 70s boilers in the kitchen every time it fired up i near **** myself they never flinched as they were used to it.

Ours in the in garage so never hear it coming on

 

[JockyBrewer]

Electricity has always been cheaper in Finland (compared to gas) due to geothermal/green energy.
UK has a history of gas (north sea gas made it cheap for us) and thus a lot of houses have gas boilers.

It also means the base load electricity for the UK grid is gas power stations.

Which is a problem as it means that the price of electricity is basically a multiple of the price of gas 95% of the time.

We need more renewable and nuclear to remove gas power stations from the mix, and then we will be able to see electricity prices drop relative to gas and actually start to make heat pumps viable.

it also means that it's "the norm" to install a boiler as thaht's what builders are familiar with. So they keep doing it. Inertia is real

This is also very true. There’s a whole industry around gas installation and very little around heat pumps.

 

[jof]

This is also very true. There’s a whole industry around gas installation and very little around heat pumps.

Not if you include the commercial air conditioning sector, but then that's not the preferred type of heat pump is it even though they have years of experience of heating/cooling commercial properties

 

[Agentgonzo]

Not if you include the commercial air conditioning sector, but then that's not the preferred type of heat pump is it even though they have years of experience of heating/cooling commercial properties

Ok. The whole domestic industry...

 

[jof]

Ok. The whole domestic industry...

My rant was because a domestic heat pump installer wanted £21k and then told us the water pressure was too low after we paid the deposit.

I then rang the local Aircon people who told me they did domestic as well as commercial & a 3 unit top of the range system would be £7k & they could start in 3 weeks.
Leaving me with spare cash to install solar & battery that more than offset the fact that my water needs to be heated by immersion heater.