Good lager in the UK

[matt76]

After going to Munich, Prague and various Eastern European cities I realise that we have a shortage of good lager in this country and I'm not sure why this is. A lot of craft breweries have a lager offering and they are quite good sometimes, but the vast majority I've had just don't stand up to traditional European lagers, and I don't understand why. I've had homebrewed helles/pils which is a lot better than most the British breweries' attempts and much closer to Bavarian or Bohemian styles, so I know it's possible!

I wanted to know if anyone has had a good helles or pils made by a British brewery which is readily available here? By readily available I mean it's not a special edition or one off beer.

Interesting that you say this - i was in Prague a few weeks. Much as I rarely drink the fizzy pish we get here, the bog standard lager there (Pilsner Urquell I think) was absolutely superb! We have a long way to go in the UK but the problem is we just don't seem to respect the beer in the way I've seen on recent travels in Europe...

By coincidence, last night i had a 500ml can of Fourpure Indy Lager from my Beer 52 box - my expectations were low but actually it was very good, even approaching the quality of the lager I had in Prague.

 

[krispn]

I had Peckham Pils when down in London in september and it was good but I had Augustiner in Munich last week and it was sublime!!

 

[lagerlad]

Got to agree with Mick here about 71 brewing lager sure they call it bohemian pilsner,lovely on draught never had it from a bottle but hope Santa might bring me one today.........another of their beers mandarina sky is one of my favourites at the moment me and my mate had a few on Sunday,totally excellent, it's an neipa

 

[Cwrw666]

I think Lager has a long way to go here in the UK to shake it's dodgy reputation. By dodgy, I mean the reputation of being a cheap, fizzy, cold, slightly flavoured, refreshing on a hot day alocholic drink.... and no more than that.

But isn't that the problem? That's just what the typical UK lager drinker actually wants.

 

[stz]

We do a lot of lager and it really is an example of providing what the market wants. Doing it 'properly' ties up tanks for a long time and potentially requires quite a lot of specialised knowledge and equipment. Seeing as the average pub doesn't care about 'craft' lager and the average drinker tends to drink on price and brand you've got a razor thin niche where some craft bars will pay a little more for a half decent craft lager, just to keep the people who are dragged in their by their ale loving friends and family happy, but it has to be built to a price. You can push out 3-4 ales in the same time it takes to do a batch of lager and the margins on the lager aren't great already.

So you get a lot of breweries doing a pretty warm ferment for a short period of time and chilling it as cold as they can as long as they can and calling it jobs a good un. There isn't a great point in investing heavily in equipment or knowledge when the locals are happy with how it is already and won't pay more for it. It is like they don't see 'craft' as a thing, they just think "well if it costs much more I might as well just buy in stella and keep the customers happy!". I don't see 'craft' as a thing either sometimes, but I mean economies of scale, trying to make a product using equipment and processes that aren't tailored towards making making that product to a consistent standard and cheap which macro breweries do so well.

 

[jceg316]

There have been some great replies to this and it's something I've been thinking about, but not had the time to respond. Santa got me a really nice mechanical keyboard for xmas so I can try it out by typing a response.

I've had a fair number of beers suggested here. I find Camden Town Brewery an average brewery and have never been a huge fan, I don't think their helles is very nice and is closer to generic lager than a Munich helles. Similarly some of the other lagers mentioned here have the same issue, including Frontier and a lot of the Brewdog attempts at a lager (like Kingpin for e.g.). Fourpure is probably my favourite brewery and I do enjoy their pils, it's definitely one of the nicer ones out there but not a genuine pils which will stop me going to Czechia. The best UK made lager I've had so far has been London Lager by Meantime. Out of the bottle it's not great, but where I work we have it on tap and it's very popular, so I think the barrel gets changed often meaning it's quite fresh. There are others mentioned here I'll be trying out.

I think a good helles or pilsner (or any lager style for that matter) isn't competing with Stella, Carlsberg, Peroni etc. It's a "real" beer and would be more at home in the craft beer section than the generic lager section of a bar or supermarket. The generic brands are brewed for people to drink something in volume and not think about it: really inoffensive liquid which doesn't require any thought whatsoever.

I've made some great lagers (if I may say so myself) fermented at ~20°c and not lagered. They are more like a kolsch made with lager yeast. I've had some other homebrewed lagers made in a way which is not typically lager process and they have been fantastic. I do think that with modern malts and yeasts a lot of the process is not needed anymore and quality lagers can be made quite easily, but I'm also aware that homebrew != commercial brew. Maybe somethings don't translate well from a grainfather to a large, many hectolitre brew kit.

 

[Drunkula]

Bedlam brewery pilsner is really nice. I don't class it as a lager so I can still hate lager. It's a pale, pale ale.

 

[Keats]

Not sure how it compares to true Bavarian beer but Thornbridge Lukas Helles is pretty good on draft if you can get it.

 

[dad_of_jon]

I had Peckham Pils when down in London in september and it was good but I had Augustiner in Munich last week and it was sublime!!

Funny that as I was in Munich before xmas and the 2 occasions I tried Helles I wasn't fussed on it - Paulaner and Augustiner however the weizens and bock saved the day, they were amazing.

 

[MyQul]

Funny that as I was in Munich before xmas and the 2 occasions I tried Helles I wasn't fussed on it - Paulaner and Augustiner however the weizens and bock saved the day, they were amazing.

I'm not sure Helles is supposed to be amazing. I get the impression that Helles is just a German lawn mower beer

 

[terrym]

The Reinheitsgebot (German Beer Purity Law) may have something to do with it especially if the principles extend to other lager producing countries like the Czech Republic. As far as I am aware this restricts the brewer to using malt and hops only. No such restrictions apply to UK brewers so if they choose to do so they can use sugar to replace some of the malt since its cheaper, with the result that many lagers are thin and watery compared to their European counterparts.

 

[matt76]

The Reinheitsgebot (German Beer Purity Law) may have something to do with it especially if the principles extend to other lager producing countries like the Czech Republic. As far as I am aware this restricts the brewer to using malt and hops only. No such restrictions apply to UK brewers so if they choose to do so they can use sugar to replace some of the malt since its cheaper, with the result that many lagers are thin and watery compared to their European counterparts.

I was chatting to a German colleague recently and he told me that actually the Rheinheitsgebot no longer exists.

(That's not to say German beer is suddenly full of junk - I like a Weizen and a Dunkels as much as the next man )

 

[terrym]

I was chatting to a German colleague recently and he told me that actually the Rheinheitsgebot no longer exists.

(That's not to say German beer is suddenly full of junk - I like a Weizen and a Dunkels as much as the next man )

According to Wikipedia, Reinheitsgebot is still apparently in place although it seems to have been relaxed in recent years, so your German colleague may be right up to a point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot
Either way it makes no difference to my own personal opinion that most UK lagers are sh**e although undoubtedly there will be exceptions to this.

 

[matt76]

Either way it makes no difference to my own personal opinion that most UK lagers are sh**e although undoubtedly there will be exceptions to this.

+1 - not gonna argue with you on that point

The depressing thing is, done right, lager can be great - we just don't do it right

 

[marshbrewer]

Funnily enough, I'm just conditioning a Ron Pattinson historic recipe - a 1934 Barklay Perkins draught lager. The recipe is all malt - 50% lager 50% pale malt, and Saaz hops. It tastes pretty good to me (although I pseudo largered it using a Kolsch yeast), so perhaps UK lager wasn't always maize and glucose adulterated junk.

 

[terrym]

Funnily enough, I'm just conditioning a Ron Pattinson historic recipe - a 1934 Barklay Perkins draught lager. The recipe is all malt - 50% lager 50% pale malt, and Saaz hops. It tastes pretty good to me (although I pseudo largered it using a Kolsch yeast), so perhaps UK lager wasn't always maize and glucose adulterated junk.

I'll bet that it was the massive increase in lager drinking in the 1960s and 70s that did for decent UK lagers at the time major brewers were trying to move their market away from cask beers and into kegs. Some on here will remember the dire keg stuff that was served at that time, and thankfully through CAMRA's efforts (whether you like 'em or not) cask beer has returned and is now arguably better than it has been for many years with a diversity of choice and brewers attention to detail. Sadly keg beers have not followed and lagers in particular are generally as bad as they ever were since they were served up to the hoi polloi

 

[jceg316]

I wouldn't be surprised if the generic lager brewers do use more adjuncts than actual malt, but why would a craft brewery who takes pride in their product do that? For instance: Fourpure make some fantastic ales which are grains, hops, yeast, water (and adjuncts where necessary), I don't see why they would skimp when it comes to their pils.

 

[stz]

It REALLY depends on how you judge it. Macro lager brewers do an excellent job of producing an economical, consistent and shelf stable product. Taste is subjective. You either like it or you don't. A 50L keg of stella can be had for £90. £47.70 of this is duty. They've got to make it, package it, deliver it and still turn a profit on £43.30. You can assume there is approx 6kg of malt in that keg, hop products, process aids, yeast, chemicals, probably up to another £10, then the cost of cleaning the keg, co2 for carbonation, filling, wages, energy, plant depreciation. Clearly the model works, they've money left over for marketing, for fitting out pubs and arranging ties, running lorries, it isn't a one man band, but the margins are by design wafer thin. At the end of it the customer gets a consistent product with an acceptable profile, it is the Chorleywood bread of the brewing world. They take pride in using adjuncts and process aids because it meets their goals. They won't call it skimping. The taste is subjective. Marketing covers a multitude of sins.

Most highly commercial lagers (and macro ales tbh) are super attenuated. This is because they use glucosidase to break down as much starch as possible, you get the maximum from your grain and mash tun capacity and because heavily attenuated brews are lighter, easier to drink in volume and have lower calories. They brew at high gravity and water down on pack to get the maximum volume out of the plant. They use cheaper adjuncts for cost, but also because they are lighter and more fermentable. They use hop extracts because they are easier and more consistent with less losses. These things all sound terrible to the average drinker, but again allows an economical, consistent and shelf stable product. The taste is subjective! They are good at what they do.

Craft brewers will not have the same equipment and won't be geared up to use the same processes. They are better off using more ingredients and singing the praises of them because they don't have the plant and scale to run on such tight margins. They may produce a product which is more to your taste which is great. I wish them nothing but success. The average lager drinker though does want an economical and consistent product, they do want a light sessionable quality, they do think a little bit about calories.

Amongst all this positivity you've micro breweries having a bash at 'craft' lager and producing a pretty substandard product. This is the side that I dislike. Why is it always a different colour? Why does the flavour profile drift? Why is it murky one week, bright the next? Why is it so expensive? Why is the carbonation all over the place? Because it is craft mate don't blame us think about the evil macro brewers with their chemical swill is not an acceptable response to a beer which fails to show even basic brewing technique.

I like rice in a lager, it brings a crispness which I enjoy. I'm not putting rice in lager because it is cheap and nasty. I like glucosidase for drying out a brew where appropriate. I'm doing it because you can make things super light, to the point where every other flavour sticks out like a sore thumb for better or worse, it allows me a rare clarity in flavour profile. I'm not doing it because it is cheap and nasty. The final cost of the end result is not even on my radar, which is a flaw quite often and I've had to learn the hard way that NOBODY around here wants a £130+ craft lager. Maybe if your brand is up there with cloudwater, but otherwise .. quick, rebrand it as an IPL, a session IPA, a DDH pale, a cream ale, a steam beer and so on even if at heart it was once a lager... they sell!

 

[jceg316]

It REALLY depends on how you judge it. Macro lager brewers do an excellent job of producing an economical, consistent and shelf stable product. Taste is subjective. You either like it or you don't. A 50L keg of stella can be had for £90. £47.70 of this is duty. They've got to make it, package it, deliver it and still turn a profit on £43.30. You can assume there is approx 6kg of malt in that keg, hop products, process aids, yeast, chemicals, probably up to another £10, then the cost of cleaning the keg, co2 for carbonation, filling, wages, energy, plant depreciation. Clearly the model works, they've money left over for marketing, for fitting out pubs and arranging ties, running lorries, it isn't a one man band, but the margins are by design wafer thin. At the end of it the customer gets a consistent product with an acceptable profile, it is the Chorleywood bread of the brewing world. They take pride in using adjuncts and process aids because it meets their goals. They won't call it skimping. The taste is subjective. Marketing covers a multitude of sins.

Most highly commercial lagers (and macro ales tbh) are super attenuated. This is because they use glucosidase to break down as much starch as possible, you get the maximum from your grain and mash tun capacity and because heavily attenuated brews are lighter, easier to drink in volume and have lower calories. They brew at high gravity and water down on pack to get the maximum volume out of the plant. They use cheaper adjuncts for cost, but also because they are lighter and more fermentable. They use hop extracts because they are easier and more consistent with less losses. These things all sound terrible to the average drinker, but again allows an economical, consistent and shelf stable product. The taste is subjective! They are good at what they do.

Craft brewers will not have the same equipment and won't be geared up to use the same processes. They are better off using more ingredients and singing the praises of them because they don't have the plant and scale to run on such tight margins. They may produce a product which is more to your taste which is great. I wish them nothing but success. The average lager drinker though does want an economical and consistent product, they do want a light sessionable quality, they do think a little bit about calories.

Amongst all this positivity you've micro breweries having a bash at 'craft' lager and producing a pretty substandard product. This is the side that I dislike. Why is it always a different colour? Why does the flavour profile drift? Why is it murky one week, bright the next? Why is it so expensive? Why is the carbonation all over the place? Because it is craft mate don't blame us think about the evil macro brewers with their chemical swill is not an acceptable response to a beer which fails to show even basic brewing technique.

I like rice in a lager, it brings a crispness which I enjoy. I'm not putting rice in lager because it is cheap and nasty. I like glucosidase for drying out a brew where appropriate. I'm doing it because you can make things super light, to the point where every other flavour sticks out like a sore thumb for better or worse, it allows me a rare clarity in flavour profile. I'm not doing it because it is cheap and nasty. The final cost of the end result is not even on my radar, which is a flaw quite often and I've had to learn the hard way that NOBODY around here wants a £130+ craft lager. Maybe if your brand is up there with cloudwater, but otherwise .. quick, rebrand it as an IPL, a session IPA, a DDH pale, a cream ale, a steam beer and so on even if at heart it was once a lager... they sell!

I really like what you've said here and I do agree with pretty much all you've said, my scathing reviews of UK lager (both craft and macro) are, as you say, because they are not to my taste, but if anyone here wants to enjoy a pint Fosters by all means that's their choice and I don't judge them at all for it.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with the difference between macros and micros (and even the not so micros), but then you go to somewhere like Prague or Munich and the breweries are somewhere inbetween. Pilsner Urquell and Staropramen are full of flavour and I would consider more like craft beer but they are definitely operating as macro breweries. Similarly when I was in Katowice, Poland, I was drinking Zywiec and it was just as good as any helles I was drinking in Munich. I went to a craft beer bar there and got a craft pilsner which was a very high standard, can't remember what it's called though. Why can they do it but we can't?

Perhaps I have to quit my job, start a microbrewery, get into lager production and figure it out for myself.

 

[stz]

Pilsner Urquell and Staropramen are my first and second choices when I'm drinking somewhere where everything on show isn't any better. Urquell is very sweet, though that isn't a problem, it is often the best one on offer. I'm sure we could do it, but we don't really want or need to? A lot rides on what the market will support. When you are thinking about what to put your capital into and planning an eventual return on investment an all british high quality continental style lager brand is probably quite low down on that list.

Why do they do it over there? Probably because that is the way that they've always done it. They are already in business and doing ok with it. Their supply chain will better geared to them and their location as well meaning a higher quality beer can be made for a little less. I too imagine that the German brewing tradition has an impact, you want to compete and rank against some of the most popular Germanic brews, sell into their market, you brew with a similar methodology to suit established tastes.

If you brew a sweeter and heavier lager with higher costs up front you'll end up with a more expensive product at the end of it. A landlord is going to have to be convinced that they should pay more to stock your product and it isn't going to be as drinkable in volume so they'll make less money on that line. Bloody money! Ruining everything.

I also imagine that local brands get away with a bit more on the continent. I'm sure some lager is their equivalent of a cask beer called golden delicious with a tractor on the pump clip, 3.7% abv quaffable with a long satisfying bitter finish. You might as well not bother here, your lager would have to be ... sexy? Bring something more to the table. A lot of micro breweries do a good business with cask and keg ale before realising that they have the customer base and reputation to float a little lager on the side if the price is right. Doesn't mean they start up that way.