foxbat's brewdays

[matt76]

There was still the odd bubble coming through the blow-off tube every 90 seconds or so which I put down to some off-gassing after fermentation and was not a reason to delay the packaging.

Funny you mention this - I've currently got a few litres of something fermenting in a glass demijohn (long story). It's been in there 3+ weeks and with a torch I can still see a few tiny bubbles rising and the odd bubble from the airlock. I'd swear it should be well past done by now. It makes me wonder if the plastic buckets I normally use have a bit more give/flex so don't behave in the same way. And since they're opaque(ish) I have no idea if there are normally little bubbles present or not!

FG was 1.005 which may seem low but I'm starting from a relatively low OG of only 1.038 and the attenuation of 86.5% is within the range that I get from all liquid yeasts. The final ABV is 4.3% and I got one keg and 3 bottles from the fermenter. The keg was fined with dissolved leaf gelatin and is set on about 12 psi to carbonate.

I still cannot fathom what it is you and I do different that makes my yeast so pig-headed and stubborn. My guess is the way you build your starters means you're either breeding the yeast to attenuate more or you're simply pitching more than calculated.

The empty fermenter smelled absolutely luscious for such a simple recipe and I'm really looking forward to trying this once it's carbonated and conditioned.

First question: How long should you wait until you get stuck in? Second question: How long will you actually wait until you get stuck in?

 

[foxbat]

Funny you mention this - I've currently got a few litres of something fermenting in a glass demijohn (long story). It's been in there 3+ weeks and with a torch I can still see a few tiny bubbles rising and the odd bubble from the airlock. I'd swear it should be well past done by now. It makes me wonder if the plastic buckets I normally use have a bit more give/flex so don't behave in the same way. And since they're opaque(ish) I have no idea if there are normally little bubbles present or not!

I'd expect that you've also got a much better seal on the demijohn. A very slow release of CO2 would probably find its way out from around the lid on a plastic bucket. I'm glad I don't ferment in glass like the Americans tend to do - if I could see what was going on I'd be doing silly things like rigging up a webcam so I could spy on the yeast . Go on then, tell us what strange science experiment you've got going on in there...

I still cannot fathom what it is you and I do different that makes my yeast so pig-headed and stubborn. My guess is the way you build your starters means you're either breeding the yeast to attenuate more or you're simply pitching more than calculated.

Beats me as well. Mash temperature is the obvious suspect - I use an ETI Therma-1T probe which comes calibrated but it's been a few years since I bought it so I might send it back for recalibration soon but I've had high 80's attenuation from day one so it's probably not that.

Infection seems unlikely since the beers taste great and the beers I brewed after the Belgian I did with the POF+ WY1388 strain (FG 1.002) all finished back at my usual 1.005-1.008 levels.

Crisp Maris Otter is a factor in the beers that attenuate below 1.005 (other than those that feature a dextrose addition). Possibly something there? I'll be cutting my next beer's MO addition with 50% Chevalier so we'll see if that makes a difference.

I do pitch a lot of yeast, at least it looks like a lot of yeast in the starter, and I make the starter with Ashbeck so the yeast get trained in the same water they're going to encounter in the beer. Of course there's no chlorine in Ashbeck so I'm not damaging the yeast before it's even got started.

First question: How long should you wait until you get stuck in? Second question: How long will you actually wait until you get stuck in?

Two weeks would be reasonable for a low OG bitter and I'll bet this time I can wait because I've still got plenty in the other keg to go at!

 

[matt76]

Go on then, tell us what strange science experiment you've got going on in there...

Tip-top secret I'm afraid. Although the fact it's still bubbling after this long makes me suspect the experiment has failed

Mash temperature is the obvious suspect - I use an ETI Therma-1T probe which comes calibrated

Yeah, I thought that was worth checking. When I've checked before my brew kettle agreed with my then-calibrated thermometer. I calibrated it again the other day in ice and boiling water so I'll check again next brew day.

(I also think I've figured out why my pre-boil gravity measurement was so off last time so I'll be checking that too)

 

[matt76]

Crisp Maris Otter is a factor in the beers that attenuate below 1.005 (other than those that feature a dextrose addition). Possibly something there? I'll be cutting my next beer's MO addition with 50% Chevalier so we'll see if that makes a difference.

I just thought of something @foxbat , do you ever notice any difference in attenuation from one malt to another? E.g. different maltster; MO vs Pilsner malt???

I'm wondering if the heritage malt I used in my last lager (Crisp Haná) might explain the low attenuation

The extract in the mash was a bit lower, and I think you've said the same before with different malts, but that one affects your OG (doesn't it???)

But I wonder if different malts might also affect attenuation and FG?

(Haven't even tried my Haná Helles yet but already tempted to repeat it with modern well/better modified malts!)

 

[dcbrookes]

I'm wondering if the heritage malt I used in my last lager (Crisp Haná) might explain the low attenuation

The extract in the mash was a bit lower, and I think you've said the same before with different malts, but that one affects your OG (doesn't it???)

Did you do a stepped mash with the Hana?

 

[matt76]

Did you do a stepped mash with the Hana?

Yep - full details here

 

[foxbat]

I just thought of something @foxbat , do you ever notice any difference in attenuation from one malt to another? E.g. different maltster; MO vs Pilsner malt???

Not in a way that I can conclusively attribute to the malt. My pilsners are all cold-fermented with a lager yeast so it wouldn't be a fair comparison. I certainly notice higher extraction from the mash with Crisp MO vs. Weyermann Pilsner.

 

[foxbat]

Here's how my version of Graham Wheeler's Flowers Original looks straight from the keg. The gelatin has cleared it up nicely and at 12psi the carbonation is about right for me.

The flavour of a beer bittered with Target (a rarity for me) is noticeably different to one bittered with Challenger or Fuggle. Personally I think this might be the best pairing yet with the smooth finish of the Yorkshire yeast but I feel it needs something more in the finish, maybe First Gold or even just another 20g or so Styrian Goldings or Fuggles at 5 minutes.

I think I'll be back to this recipe in the future.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Here's how my version of Graham Wheeler's Flowers Original looks straight from the keg. The gelatin has cleared it up nicely and at 12psi the carbonation is about right for me.

The flavour of a beer bittered with Target (a rarity for me) is noticeably different to one bittered with Challenger or Fuggle. Personally I think this might be the best pairing yet with the smooth finish of the Yorkshire yeast but I feel it needs something more in the finish, maybe First Gold or even just another 20g or so Styrian Goldings or Fuggles at 5 minutes.

I think I'll be back to this recipe in the future.

I Foxbat, i think target is a very underrated hop, i think a lot of brewers use to much i find it goes well with EKG but that's just me, still a fine looking pint though

 

[An Ankoù]

I just thought of something @foxbat , do you ever notice any difference in attenuation from one malt to another? E.g. different maltster; MO vs Pilsner malt???

I'm wondering if the heritage malt I used in my last lager (Crisp Haná) might explain the low attenuation

The extract in the mash was a bit lower, and I think you've said the same before with different malts, but that one affects your OG (doesn't it???)

But I wonder if different malts might also affect attenuation and FG?

(Haven't even tried my Haná Helles yet but already tempted to repeat it with modern well/better modified malts!)

For what it's worth, I did a single infusion mash with haná about a year ago and got lower than expected extraction from it.
I used to find that lager/Pilsner malts and extra pale MO gave me about 10% less extraction than pale malts. The best malt I ever used was MO from Tucker's Maltings which gave me more than the MO I got from Hop & Grape in Darlington. But that was all so long ago, now.
I seem to get the same extraction from Bestmalz Pilsner and Heidelberg, and Castle Maltings Pilsner as I do from Crisp's Best or Minch Hook Head.

 

[foxbat]

Right so this weekend's brew is going to be the Black Sheep Bitter recipe from the Graham Wheeler book. I'll be fermenting with the Brewlab Yorkshire strain and so that means I need to get my starter on.

I made up a 1.5 litre starter with the aim of saving back 500ml for next time. If you've been following my use of this yeast then you'll have seen just how madly aggressive it is, even managing to climb out of my 5 litre flask. Well this time in a bid to avoid the mess and loss of yeast cells I've added two drops of Brupaks Antifoam. It's a thick, creamy liquid that needs a syringe to have any hope of getting individual drops out of it.

Here's a picture after 20 hours on the stir plate.

This is certainly different to how it normally looks. The bubbles seem smaller and the krausen denser as a result. I'm sure by now it would have fully covered the surface of the flask and I am slightly worried that there are bubbles at all given the enthusiasm for antifoam on the forums. Anyway we'll see how it goes; I can't imagine a more difficult opponent for the antifoam than this yeast. I don't mind if it climbs a bit as long it stays in the flask!

 

[foxbat]

And here's how it looks this morning (+36 hours):

The antifoam has worked. The krausen looks more like a big cappuccino than the rampant beast that it was before. There's no way this is going to climb out of the flask and the net result is that I won't be losing valuable yeast to the mess in the flask; particularly around the top.

Apparently the silicone emulsion stuff in antifoam binds to yeast cells and drops out into the trub. Bizarrely It's even supposed to be foam-positive and an aid to beer clarity if used in the fermenter. I'm very tempted to add a few drops very late in the boil so it gets sterilised then transferred into the fermenter with the wort.

 

[Brewnaldo]

And here's how it looks this morning (+36 hours):

The antifoam has worked. The krausen looks more like a big cappuccino than the rampant beast that it was before. There's no way this is going to climb out of the flask and the net result is that I won't be losing valuable yeast to the mess in the flask; particularly around the top.

Apparently the silicone emulsion stuff in antifoam binds to yeast cells and drops out into the trub. Bizarrely It's even supposed to be foam-positive and an aid to beer clarity if used in the fermenter. I'm very tempted to add a few drops very late in the boil so it gets sterilised then transferred into the fermenter with the wort.

What antifoam are you using? Is it the distillers conditioner stuff you can get off GEB?

 

[foxbat]

What antifoam are you using? Is it the distillers conditioner stuff you can get off GEB?

Brupaks Antifoam from the homebrew shop (also others).

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Apparently the silicone emulsion stuff in antifoam binds to yeast cells and drops out into the trub. Bizarrely It's even supposed to be foam-positive and an aid to beer clarity if used in the fermenter. I'm very tempted to add a few drops very late in the boil so it gets sterilised then transferred into the fermenter with the wort.

I don't know the chemistry of it but supposedly some of the elements that make foam get used up, so by not foaming in the boil/fermenter, that saves "foamability" for the beer.

Simet(h)icone is found in all sorts of things, it stops foaming in your guts so it's a common component of anti-wind medication. Rennie Deflatine contains it and 1/3 of a tablet works fine in stopping a boil boiling over - it's in most supermarkets. It's not ideal as it comes in a chalk-based pill but you're not adding that much calcium carbonate.

 

[foxbat]

I don't know the chemistry of it but supposedly some of the elements that make foam get used up, so by not foaming in the boil/fermenter, that saves "foamability" for the beer.

Simet(h)icone is found in all sorts of things, it stops foaming in your guts so it's a common component of anti-wind medication. Rennie Deflatine contains it and 1/3 of a tablet works fine in stopping a boil boiling over - it's in most supermarkets. It's not ideal as it comes in a chalk-based pill but you're not adding that much calcium carbonate.

On the bottle it says it's polydimethylsiloxane which means it's the same stuff as Murphy's FD20PK.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

On the bottle it says it's polydimethylsiloxane which means it's the same stuff as Murphy's FD20PK.

PDMS, aka dimethicone, which gets used in everything from cooking oil (its E number is E900) to condom lubricant and the "silicone" in breast implants.

Simet(h)icone is effectively the "medical" formulation of dimethicone where it's mixed with silica but it's basically the same stuff.

 

[foxbat]

It was brewday yesterday for the Black Sheep Bitter clone. The Yorkshire yeast never got any bigger than my last photograph above so the Antifoam did the job it was supposed to and I'll certainly use it again in the future.

Here's the recipe I followed (credit: the late Graham Wheeler)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Date: 30 April 2022
Batch Size (fermenter): 24.00 L 
Estimated OG: 1.039 SG
Estimated Color: 17.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 30.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 78.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.6 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes
Water profile: Ca:92 Mg:13 Na:9 SO4:142 Cl:92

Ingredients:
------------
Amt        Name                                             Type        %/IBU  
29.13 L    Tesco Ashbeck                                Water       -      
3.90 g     Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash)              Water Agent -      
3.00 g     Calcium Chloride (Mash)                      Water Agent -      
2.70 g     Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash)                    Water Agent -      
3.257 kg   Crisp Maris Otter (7.9 EBC)                  Grain       84.6 % 
0.380 kg   Crisp Torrified Wheat  (3.9 EBC)             Grain       9.9 %  
0.195 kg   Crisp Light Crystal (150.0 EBC)              Grain       5.1 %  
0.020 kg   Weyermann Carafa II  (1150.0 EBC)            Grain       0.5 %  
0.80 g     Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Sparge)            Water Agent -      
0.60 g     Calcium Chloride (Sparge)                    Water Agent -      
0.60 g     Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Sparge)                  Water Agent -      
15.00 g    Challenger [7.70 %] - Boil 60.0 min          Hop         13.7 IBUs
10.00 g    East Kent Goldings [6.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min  Hop         8.1 IBUs
10.00 g    Fuggles [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min             Hop         5.9 IBUs
13.00 g    Fuggle [5.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min              Hop         2.8 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 7.0 mins)             Fining      -      
1.0 pkg    Brewlab Yorkshire                            Yeast       -      

Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 3.852 kg
----------------------------
Name       Description                       Step Temperat Step Time   
Mash In    Add 24.13 L of water at 72C       69.0 C        60 min

Four different grains make up the coloured grain bill. I haven't used torrified wheat for a while now and it makes up 10% of this grain bill.

I've come to expect the Brewlab Yorkshire yeast to attenuate really strongly if I mash at the 'usual' 65-67C range so I'm doing what I did with the Dark Mild and mashing in at 69C in an attempt to reign it in a bit. After an hour the temperature in my thermopot had dropped to 67.6C.

It was a nice and simple brewday and I was all done with the yeast pitched before midday. The OG was 1.040, just one point above the estimate and the colour is a nice light amber.

I collected 24 litres into the fermenter, and was able to pitch the Brewlab yeast starter straight away at 20C where it will remain for the next 2 weeks. This time I forgot to decant the starter before pitching so there'll be an extra litre of unhopped 1.036 beer in the mix but previous experience shows that this makes no difference to the end result.

Pitching the yeast at 11am meant that I'd be awake when fermentation started and sure enough by 6pm there was activity through the blow-off tube. As usual I'm running the CO2 produced by the fermentation through the keg that will hold the finished beer to purge it.

I decided not to add antifoam to the fermenter after all though I guess it will get two drops from the starter.

 

[moto748]

You've gone with Carafa II rather than black malt? But it's only for colour, I guess. That's pretty much my 'Grey Sheep', which I've brewed a few times. Different yeast, though. That looks quite pale in the photo there.

 

[foxbat]

You've gone with Carafa II rather than black malt? But it's only for colour, I guess. That's pretty much my 'Grey Sheep', which I've brewed a few times. Different yeast, though. That looks quite pale in the photo there.

Yes the Carafa 2 (actually Carafa 2 Special) I had left over from some lager brewing and since it's debittered I thought it would be good to use for colour here.

I've never had much luck hitting the predicted colour of a recipe for some reason, not on the first attempt anyway.