Fermzilla Dry-hopping via PCO 1881 Ball Valve - Stuck Pellets

[muppix]

Thanks for the replies everyone, it's much appreciated though it feels as though we've strayed onto the topic of whether or not we should worry about oxygen during dry-hopping, whereas I've already decided that yes, I do worry, and I'm going to take some reasonable steps to reduce it as much as I can. Those PET sample tubes mentioned by @Buffers brewery are going to be my starting point and I think I've found some that may work, but I'll need to confirm that they have a compatible PCO thread for my ball valve. If that doesn't work out I'll investigate the tri-clamp lid suggested by @Davegase but as others have said this will increase the height of the fermenter to the point where it may no longer fit into the fridge. By the way @Davegase - do you have a link for that thing? Can't seem to find it on any UK retailer's site.

Now I fix my dry hopper under the bucket lid, fill with dry hops, close and fit to the bucket after pitching the yeast. Once the bucket is in the fridge it stays there until it’s empty (after transfer). The dry hops are added by simply moving a couple of magnets on the lid, takes literally a second.

I've heard of this approach before and like its simplicity, but I do wonder how much of the goodness is lost by flushing the hops with CO2 during the fermentation process. Must smell lovely in that fridge though!

 

[Davegase]

Thanks for the replies everyone, it's much appreciated though it feels as though we've strayed onto the topic of whether or not we should worry about oxygen during dry-hopping, whereas I've already decided that yes, I do worry, and I'm going to take some reasonable steps to reduce it as much as I can. Those PET sample tubes mentioned by @Buffers brewery are going to be my starting point and I think I've found some that may work, but I'll need to confirm that they have a compatible PCO thread for my ball valve. If that doesn't work out I'll investigate the tri-clamp lid suggested by @Davegase but as others have said this will increase the height of the fermenter to the point where it may no longer fit into the fridge. By the way @Davegase - do you have a link for that thing? Can't seem to find it on any UK retailer's site.



I've heard of this approach before and like its simplicity, but I do wonder how much of the goodness is lost by flushing the hops with CO2 during the fermentation process. Must smell lovely in that fridge though!

It's the official kegland store on AliExpress.
https://a.aliexpress.com/_uh26xh

 

[phildo79]

But it isn't fully purged. There will still be 10-12 ppm of oxygen in the water and if the Star San is the foaming sanitizer probably more. If you wanted to really remove the oxygen then boil the water a few times to remove the oxygen then run oxygen free co2 through the water for a few hours.

I can't be bothered with this method so I hook my empty keg up to the gas, crank it up to 30psi, fill it and then open the PRV and leave it open for about ten seconds. Since oxygen is lighter than c02, I figure it will get fully flushed out.

 

[foxy]

I have put this chart up before, it takes 16 purges @ 30 psi to remove the oxygen. Home brewers have been using kegs for years without closed transfers. I am sure the number of oxidised kegs would be minimal.

 

[muppix]

It's the official kegland store on AliExpress.

Perfect - thanks for that. Unfortunately I'm 1.5" too short in my fermentation fridge for this arrangement. Good thought though!

 

[gingerneil]

Perfect - thanks for that. Unfortunately I'm 1.5" too short in my fermentation fridge for this arrangement. Good thought though!

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I wondered a out this too, but even just to the value I think it would be too tall for me. I can take the fv out of the fridge to add the bong when needed, but that valve makes it too tall.

 

[Agentgonzo]

though it feels as though we've strayed onto the topic of whether or not we should worry about oxygen during dry-hopping, whereas I've already decided that yes, I do worry

It happens on almost every thread about that involves oxygen sadly. People think we live in a binary world and want to be right and like to argue.

 

[Buffers brewery]

Perfect - thanks for that. Unfortunately I'm 1.5" too short in my fermentation fridge for this arrangement. Good thought though!

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It’s a shame I couldn’t get my design to be airtight (still working on it) but that would have fit your fridge…..

 

[phildo79]

1. Crush the pellets before adding them to the bottle, or
2. Find a perfect cylinder (i.e. neckless bottle) so there's nowhere for them to get stuck, or
3. Also throw in a pokey thing with a magnet at one end so that I can jiggle the hops without opening the bottle, or
4. Devise a self-contained, remote controlled auger, or
5. ...

5. Have you tried a different method of introducing dry hops such as suspending a bag of hops inside the FV using magnets?

When the time comes, just remove the outer magnet and the bag will drop. I did this today with a Pliny clone that required two dry hopping schedules. One for 13 days, the other 5 days. I didn't want to reopen the FV (which I purged after the first dry hop (although now I am worried I didn't purge it enough)) for the second one so used magnets. I heard it plop (my FV is a 23L corny) so the magnet definitely held it up for the last 8 days.

 

[phildo79]

It’s a shame I couldn’t get my design to be airtight (still working on it) but that would have fit your fridge…..

There are a lot of parts to that device, which is why I am guessing it is difficult to make airtight. Have you thought about making it as an all in one, screw on device to the to FV and then screw the FV lid on top?

 

[Buffers brewery]

There are a lot of parts to that device, which is why I am guessing it is difficult to make airtight. Have you thought about making it as an all in one, screw on device to the to FV and then screw the FV lid on top?

The only part that needs to be airtight is the large outer body that bolts onto the Allrounder neck. The bits inside can be porous as they don’t connect to the outside world.

 

[phildo79]

But does it need bolted on? Couldn't it simply screw on like the original lid does?

 

[Buffers brewery]

But does it need bolted on? Couldn't it simply screw on like the original lid does?

Yes. The body would have the nut form that holds the cap on as an integral part. Might be a bit tricky getting the o ring in the groove. It was easier for me to make and put together with the bolted arrangement. Still have to find a way of making mu 3-D printed porous body airtight. I’m going to give lacquering another go.

P.S. The manufacturer makes the lid from two parts as it cannot be manufactured as a single plastic moulding with the o ring groove and cap thread.

 

[phildo79]

Yes. The body would have the nut form that holds the cap on as an integral part. Might be a bit tricky getting the o ring in the groove. It was easier for me to make and put together with the bolted arrangement. Still have to find a way of making mu 3-D printed porous body airtight. I’m going to give lacquering another go.

P.S. The manufacturer makes the lid from two parts as it cannot be manufactured as a single plastic moulding with the o ring groove and cap thread.

Could you use another FV screw on lid, but remove a portion from the middle and then attach a single device with either glue or by welding (probably the wrong terminology when talking about plastic) and then screw the normal FV lid on top?

 

[Buffers brewery]

Could you use another FV screw on lid, but remove a portion from the middle and then attach a single device with either glue or by welding (probably the wrong terminology when talking about plastic) and then screw the normal FV lid on top?

As the old saying goes "there's more than one way to skin a cat" . I think what you're suggesting is something along the line of the Kegland accessory above #25.

 

[hoppyscotty]

I disagree or at least to the point at whatever oxygen there is in the system is at such low levels that it doesn’t make a difference that is detectable. The ultimate telling is in the end result of the beer. I’ve been through a few oxidised brews so have the experience and scars and made changes to process and equipment to avoid it and shown what makes a difference the changes I’ve made have contributed over a number of brews, and what it does to the actual beer in terms of flavour, aroma, colour and ‘shelf life’.

Go on, the beauty of this hobby is there are always many ways to skin the cat and it is very dependant on individuals equipment, setups, process, beer styles, and a million and one other variables and we each have to find what works for us.

And to be clear, it’s only an issue for highly dry hopped beers in my experience. People are right to be paranoid about oxidation with this beer style. Other beer styles are just more robust to oxidation and you don’t have to be as careful.

Also for the avoidance of doubt, there is nothing fancy about dry hopping in a keg or out of the fermenter. It’s a pretty simple and common process that doesn’t require any special equipment a reasonably keen home brewer won’t already have and my reasons for doing it are more than just avoiding oxidation. There are several other benefits I’ve noticed too. Also I am chasing those additional few percentage of improvement to my beers so I’m well into that ‘law of diminishing returns’ region.

Having said that I now have a larger brew set up and a larger fermenter so will have to revert to dry hopping in the fermenter. But I do have a ‘hop bong’ Device and will be dumping trub before dry hopping so trying as hard as possible to replicate the process I’ve arrived at on my smaller system.

Bit the fun is in trying different things and seeing what works and what doesn’t. As long as you’re producing drinkable beer it’s all good.

 

[foxy]

I disagree or at least to the point at whatever oxygen there is in the system is at such low levels that it doesn’t make a difference that is detectable. The ultimate telling is in the end result of the beer. I’ve been through a few oxidised brews so have the experience and scars and made changes to process and equipment to avoid it and shown what makes a difference the changes I’ve made have contributed over a number of brews, and what it does to the actual beer in terms of flavour, aroma, colour and ‘shelf life’.

Go on, the beauty of this hobby is there are always many ways to skin the cat and it is very dependant on individuals equipment, setups, process, beer styles, and a million and one other variables and we each have to find what works for us.

And to be clear, it’s only an issue for highly dry hopped beers in my experience. People are right to be paranoid about oxidation with this beer style. Other beer styles are just more robust to oxidation and you don’t have to be as careful.

Also for the avoidance of doubt, there is nothing fancy about dry hopping in a keg or out of the fermenter. It’s a pretty simple and common process that doesn’t require any special equipment a reasonably keen home brewer won’t already have and my reasons for doing it are more than just avoiding oxidation. There are several other benefits I’ve noticed too. Also I am chasing those additional few percentage of improvement to my beers so I’m well into that ‘law of diminishing returns’ region.

Having said that I now have a larger brew set up and a larger fermenter so will have to revert to dry hopping in the fermenter. But I do have a ‘hop bong’ Device and will be dumping trub before dry hopping so trying as hard as possible to replicate the process I’ve arrived at on my smaller system.

Bit the fun is in trying different things and seeing what works and what doesn’t. As long as you’re producing drinkable beer it’s all good.

Not knocking your approach, all I am questioning is your statement "Oxygen free transfer" will never happen on a home brew or pro brew scale Best you could achieve is a lower ppm of oxygen. Pro brewers talk in ppb of oxygen.

Thanks for the replies everyone, it's much appreciated though it feels as though we've strayed onto the topic of whether or not we should worry about oxygen during dry-hopping, whereas I've already decided that yes, I do worry.

What you should consider is that when you open the top cover the gas inside the fermenter is at 1 ATM as is the air outside so the 2 gases are at an equilibrium, air isn't going to rush into the fermenter just as the co2 isn't going to rush out.
Surely the bigger worry is every hop pellet contains air, how are you going to keep that out when dry hopping?

 

[Davegase]

Perfect - thanks for that. Unfortunately I'm 1.5" too short in my fermentation fridge for this arrangement. Good thought though!

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You wouldn't need to add the top parts (the hop bong) above the butterfly valve until you need to dry hop.
So with the butterfly valve already fitted and closed you could ferment in the fridge, then take it out to add the top parts to dry hop then remove the top parts and back in the fridge.
Personally though I'm happy to remove the lid and bung the hops in.

 

[muppix]

It’s a shame I couldn’t get my design to be airtight (still working on it) but that would have fit your fridge…..

That's probably because you left the O-rings out. Seriously though, an impressive arrangement. The only (and very minor) reservation I'd have about using that is that my spunding valve attaches to the threads above the hops, and while useful for purging oxygen, the steady stream of CO2 through those hops during fermentation could well affect their potency at deployment time. Now if you had a way of making the hop chamber air-tight after a set period or at a set pressure ...

Have you tried a different method of introducing dry hops such as suspending a bag of hops inside the FV using magnets?

Not yet. I've always believed that unless such a bag could be made air-tight those hops would be continuously flushed with CO2, diminishing their goodness. Maybe I should pull my finger out and do an experiment.

You wouldn't need to add the top parts (the hop bong) above the butterfly valve until you need to dry hop.

Now why didn't I think of that? D'oh!!
To be fair, I typically cold-crash after dry-hopping and hefting that FV in and out of the fridge is a right pain - I'd rather 'modify' the fridge to have some kind of access hatch in the top if I could be sure of doing so safely.

 

[phildo79]

Don't hop pellets come in packets that are already c02 flushed?