Electric cars.

[old dog new tricks]

Sorry but while EVs are not perfect in any form, they are light years ahead of the vast majority of heat pump installations that have been a disaster, until the stupid link with wholesale gas prices is removed and electricity sold a much reduced price, heat pumps are simply not economically viable, the minimum mandate should be solar and battery install to offset the increased running costs.

EVs for example were expensive to purchase (coming down now tho) BUT they are cheaper to run in some circumstances well until this mob got in power at least (to be fair was Tory policy they just refused to cancel) , where as no matter how you dress it up in colder climates heatpumps cost more than a gas boiler.

Forcing change when cost of living is already crippling is not on, cars well there is an option can can chose not to and use other means eg. public transport, heating and domestic hot water sorry but what other choices are there if they ban gas boilers? My neighbour has the right idea a bloody huge log burner, not going to save the planet but as he says costs him less than gas and good luck trying to stop him using it.

The government NEED to understand when money is tight people will do what they need to to stay warm and survive, when the commercial energy prices spiked it was cheaper to run emergency diesel generators that use expensive electricity from the suppliers if we do not break this cycle it will never change.

Forcing changed (as even the Greens in Scotland had to back down from) is not the answer, details still to emerge but the Scottish model was failure to use a non gas heating system would result in refusal to issue a home report for selling a property, just the ticket to further damage the housing market.

Speaking personally I am not against change but only when its a genuine proven and economically viable alternative until then I will be keeping my gas boiler

 

[Rodcx500z]

You could use a lower power boiler if all the houses went back to a traditional hot water tank.
But in these days of mains pressure heat on demand hot water you will need all that heating power just to get a decent shower & I doubt you'd get a bath on demand - I think you need an over complex mains pressure hot water cylinder (like a megaflow).

I do worry that on a lot of these things the added complexity & reduced lifespan slashes any cost savings due to increased efficiency.
This is where Chinese EVs could wipe the floor if they can establish a track record for high reliability with simple low cost cars.
All this super tech being built in is just more to go wrong or become outdated and usable after a few years.

We only have an electric shower so no need for a boiler with a tank

 

[Rodcx500z]

For those who don't know how dangerous Lithium is, watch the video https://www.msn.com/en-gb/video/wat...N&cvid=da7c448ddac04d5dccdfd2c46a4d429f&ei=12

 

[Rodcx500z]

5. End of Congestion Charge Exemptions for EVs​

Electric and hydrogen-fuelled vehicles will lose their exemption from London's Congestion Charge starting 25th December 2025. Drivers in the Congestion Charging Zone (CCZ) currently save approximately £15 per day, but this benefit will soon end, impacting EV owners commuting in central London.
What is the incentive of owning one

 

[old dog new tricks]

5. End of Congestion Charge Exemptions for EVs​

Electric and hydrogen-fuelled vehicles will lose their exemption from London's Congestion Charge starting 25th December 2025. Drivers in the Congestion Charging Zone (CCZ) currently save approximately £15 per day, but this benefit will soon end, impacting EV owners commuting in central London.
What is the incentive of owning one

Becoming an absolute joke the whole idea was to lower emissions now they have enough EV drivers let's change the rules to fleece them as well absolutely farcical zero incentive any more

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Electric and hydrogen-fuelled vehicles will lose their exemption from London's Congestion Charge

As I said hit the car driver all they will do is moan and carry on paying.

 

[AlBrew]

What is the incentive of owning one

So you don't pay the ULEZ, that's the one that relates to emissions.
I would list the many other incentives and benefits (that appear obvious to me in my situation) but I feel anyone who is still reading this thread should have by now read them all many times over.

the whole idea was to lower emissions

The Congestion Charge is about congestion, it's in the title. EV's have never been exempt they have just recieved a 100% discount, a bit semantic I know but applying a discount implies that it's probably not going to be permanent, just a temporary incentive to boost the move to EV's. These tactics are used all over the place to "guide" consumer habits or spending or saving. Now people are moving so no need to discount it anymore.

Currently an ICE driver pays both ULEZ and CCZ at the same time if they are mad enough to want to drive in central London.

 

[Rodcx500z]

The Congestion Charge is about congestion, it's in the title. EV's have never been exempt they have just recieved a 100% discount,

That's a nice way of saying your going to be ripped off, sorry but i am very scam savvy

 

[JockyBrewer]

I don’t know why anyone would want to drive in the congestion charge area.

 

[Nicks90]

Just going back to the topic of what to do with excess energy generated...rather than producing hydrogen - which we all know is horribly inefficient, what about pumping water uphill?
Two reservoirs with a hydro leccy generator between them, when you excess energy you pump the water from the lower to upper reservoir and then it drop back down through the gennie when you need top up leccy for the grid.
No idea what sort of efficiencies this would give or even if it's worse than making hydrogen

 

[old dog new tricks]

Just going back to the topic of what to do with excess energy generated...rather than producing hydrogen - which we all know is horribly inefficient, what about pumping water uphill?
Two reservoirs with a hydro leccy generator between them, when you excess energy you pump the water from the lower to upper reservoir and then it drop back down through the gennie when you need top up leccy for the grid.
No idea what sort of efficiencies this would give or even if it's worse than making hydrogen

You also need to have suitable geographic layout for this to work.
Loch Sloy took nearly 5 years and 21 deaths to complete infrastructure like this is hugely expensive and challenging. To create 2 different height reservoirs is a construction nightmare, expensive and time consuming.
Hydrogen is not perfect but off by the shelf instant option if managed correctly, long term option nope but the longer we debate the perfect option the more we pay to not produce energy it's utter madness.
If this occurred in any other industry it would be laughed at and be treated with immediate effect this madness has been happening for decades and been ignored gross mis management by successive governments across the world

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Think the point was missed re hydrogen the point was raised on what to do with you excess energy renewables generate that can not be put into the grid or existing storage technology. The second part was the fees paid to turn off turbines this is paid if they generate no energy so using this will not incur more costs but will actually deliver something rather than the current set up.
I am not suggesting roll out hydrogen to every home but creation of green hydrogen storage and transportation is all existing technology and available. To run a gas turbine with hydrogen is not a technical challenge I would agree if diverting energy to make hydrogen is not cost effective but neither is turning off turbines getting no energy and still paying for that

There's two separate issues here. One is a lack of transmission capacity to get electricity from a generator to demand elsewhere in the "system". The other is producing electricity when there's no demand anywhere in the system.

Only the first attracts constraint payments. And it's worth noting that although the headlines may shout about constraint payments "over £1bn in 2024", those same headlines tend not to mention that over 75% of those payments go to gas generators rather than windfarms. Meanwhile just one windfarm auction in 2021 has led to prospective operators paying the Treasury £879m/year in "rent" before they've even built the windfarms. So there are questions to be raised about how the Treasury are taking money out of the system, and also about how the Balancing Mechanism works in respect of gas generation. As far as wind goes, obviously part of the "solution" is building generation close to demand. Historically the market plonked wind turbines wherever had the most convenient road access, highest winds, and fewest neighbours, whereas we now seem to be moving towards a more coordinated system-level approach where supply and demand are more closely matched geographically. But for now, the mismatches in supply and demand can be resolved in these ways :

One-off spend on ££ transmission infrastructure
One-off spend on ££ grid batteries (round-trip efficiency 70-90%)
One-off spend on £££ hydrogen production, hydrogen pipelines, hydrogen storage and any changes needed to gas power stations (round-trip efficiency 40-50%)
Ongoing spend on £ constraint payments

They're not mutually exclusive, but constraint payments are a lower cost option in the short-term, and can make sense whilst you're going through the process of getting planning permission etc for longer-term fixes.

Main problems with hydrogen are the low round-trip efficiencies and high costs - the economics are currently pretty dodgy even if you make it with "free" electricity. So for relieving "congestion" on the grid you are better off spending the money on new transmission, and constraint payments in the short term.

That's not to say hydrogen storage doesn't have a place in the times when there is supply but no demand anywhere on the system. Most of the planning suggests that hydrogen storage is probably the way to go for the extreme events where you need to power a large chunk of the system for several days of no wind, but it's just not competitive with batteries for the short-term stuff.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Just going back to the topic of what to do with excess energy generated...rather than producing hydrogen - which we all know is horribly inefficient, what about pumping water uphill?
Two reservoirs with a hydro leccy generator between them, when you excess energy you pump the water from the lower to upper reservoir and then it drop back down through the gennie when you need top up leccy for the grid.
No idea what sort of efficiencies this would give or even if it's worse than making hydrogen

It's not too bad from an efficiency point of view - around 75% roundtrip, the real problem is a shortage of sites. You need two large reservoirs nearby with a big drop between them, and there's just not that many places where you get that.

 

[Cwrw666]

Just going back to the topic of what to do with excess energy generated...rather than producing hydrogen - which we all know is horribly inefficient, what about pumping water uphill?
Two reservoirs with a hydro leccy generator between them, when you excess energy you pump the water from the lower to upper reservoir and then it drop back down through the gennie when you need top up leccy for the grid.
No idea what sort of efficiencies this would give or even if it's worse than making hydrogen

There's one in North Wales, been there since the seventies. Dinorwic I think.
I always thought it strange in a place with so much water that could be used for hydroelectric the 2 reservoir thing is just pointlessly using up electricity.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

There's one in North Wales, been there since the seventies. Dinorwic I think.
I always thought it strange in a place with so much water that could be used for hydroelectric the 2 reservoir thing is just pointlessly using up electricity.

Dinorwig/c is far from pointless - until the advent of grid batteries it provided a vital service to the grid, "instant" extra power on demand to keep the grid running when eg everyone turned on their kettles in the Corrie ad break. But it only has finite capacity, a couple of hours at full chat.

 

[hoppyscotty]

It's not too bad from an efficiency point of view - around 75% roundtrip, the real problem is a shortage of sites. You need two large reservoirs nearby with a big drop between them, and there's just not that many places where you get that.

I remember studying this in Geography back in the '80's and the upshot was the efficiency was terrible...in that it consumed more electricity to pump the water back up to the top reservoir than it generated, but you pumped it up at night when electricity was cheaper so from an economic standpoint was viable, but not from an efficiency standpoint, but on a windy night when you have the capacity to generate alot of excess electricity form wind turbines this concept is even more viable, but we just dont have the topography in the uk for this on a larger scale.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Dinorwig/c is far from pointless - until the advent of grid batteries it provided a vital service to the grid, "instant" extra power on demand to keep the grid running when eg everyone turned on their kettles in the Corrie ad break. But it only has finite capacity, a couple of hours at full chat.

Well that is better than the battery farm that only have a couple of minutes at full chat, but I guess the point is they are not designed to run at full chat, they just trickle in the energy at points of high or peak demand.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Why are we burning rubbish and fossil fuel to produce electric at the same time wind farms are parking turbines?

 

[hoppyscotty]

Just going back to the topic of what to do with excess energy generated...rather than producing hydrogen - which we all know is horribly inefficient, what about pumping water uphill?
Two reservoirs with a hydro leccy generator between them, when you excess energy you pump the water from the lower to upper reservoir and then it drop back down through the gennie when you need top up leccy for the grid.
No idea what sort of efficiencies this would give or even if it's worse than making hydrogen

If you talk about efficiency then solar and wind dont fair much better. they usually only are capable of producing about a third of their max rated power generation capacity over time and if you consider that a solar panel can only convert about 20% of the total energy that falls on it to electricity, and wind turbines about 35% of the total energy presented to the turbine face, then they are horribly inefficient leading to much more acreage of solar and wind farms swallowing up more and more of our precious countryside - a commodity that is being 'cheapened' by our political elite for the convenience of their political policies. then you look at the terrible energy density of battery farms taking up many acres of land to store similar energy levels as a single articulated oil/petrol tanker truck and cost billion of pounds. None of this is particularly efficient, just depends where you cherry pick to measure your efficiency so support whatever side of the argument you are pushing.

At least with renewables the efficiency argument is coming from the opposite side as with petrol or diesel in that 100% of the available energy is being wasted if you dont do anything, so whatever you can recover is all useful irrespective of how inefficient it is form an energy conversion perspective, whereas with petrol or diesel you have a set and finite amount of energy within your fuel tank and its about extracting as much of that energy as possible...though that is not to say that the 'wasted' energy, usually in the form of heat, is not useful too. So in cold areas of the world you have combined heat and power stations where the power generation...about 45% efficient, generates abundance amounts of cheap power, but the waste due to the inefficiency of the electrical generation is mostly in the form of excess heat which can easily and efficiently be recovered and is piped into the neighbouring buildings and utilised for heating, so those systems from a holistic level are very very efficient and dirt cheap to run.