Electric cars.

[Northern_Brewer]

Nice graph. how much of road transport is personal vs road freight?

I dug out some data back in 2020, trying to figure out how much leccy a fully-electric road fleet would use. At that time there were about 67x as many cars as trucks in the UK, and if they all converted to electric at 2020 efficiencies, the energy split would be roughly 60:20:20 car:van:truck.

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/...under-pms-green-plan.90990/page-7#post-976688

As an aside, it's worth noting that the new Lucid Air Pure claims 5 miles/kWh, 50% more miles per kWh than I assumed would be typical of the market back then.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

here's more advice from a firefigher who just happens to be a qualifed engineer.

140 cars caught fire because the sprinkler system wasn't working funny how they leave that info until near the end.

 

[Stu]

From Toyota Yaris forum -


View attachment 102596

See how you go then. I don't think you'll get 70.3 - unless you're doing a particular type of mileage.
I guess my problem is I have a rather heavy right foot.

I did actually get 100mpg out of my Prius too. I used to live fairly close to the motorway. I used battery mostly to get me to the motorway, then followed a truck for 70 miles being dragged along, then used the battery to get me off.

If you get 100mpg on it, normally that means you've just been driving on battery. Unless they've fixed it, it can't actually work out over 100.

 

[Stu]

140 cars caught fire because the sprinkler system wasn't working funny how they leave that info until near the end.

Sadly, being an expert doesn't mean you don't have strong opinions. Covid showed that. And it's caused people to become heavily divisive.

If you have 1,000 experts who say "This isn't likely to happen" it only takes 1 so-called expert to say "It is likely" that people jump on it.

 

[old dog new tricks]

140 cars caught fire because the sprinkler system wasn't working funny how they leave that info until near the

140 cars caught fire because the sprinkler system wasn't working funny how they leave that info until near the end.

Some very valid points about fire safety tho, makes sense to have the EV charging and parking near accessible points.

Tho I am some what confused I looked into this before getting my 2020 Kona EV, the negative publicity around that model was somewhat tainted, the cars that caught fire were subjected to extreme temperatures and had existing faults that were not rectified. Can't speak for other EVs but i know mine has battery management that heats or cools the battery when required to remain in a safe and optimal condition, the warning is that the heat pump and aircon systems must be kept on good working order and battery never fully discharged to prevent the operation of said systems.

Given the UK climate I have no fear of overheating the battery tbh

On the wider issue of public charging said it before this needs urgent reform the taxation is unjust and unfair and created a divide within society essentially if you can't charge at home you are disadvantaged.
Why can public chargers not operate off peak rates like domestic for example?
I charge mainly at home but due to still being tied into a contract not at a reduced rate.
I find my local public charging network to be a farce the council owned chargers are way too expensive, they charge the same for 11kw AC as the other local 50kw DC that is commercially owned, makes the choice simple if i need to charge away from home. My car is old tech these days so can only charge at 70KW so I don't pay the huge extra premium for the elusive 100 or 150KW chargers.

I am glad to see that the latest generation have less powerful motors that makes sense mine is by no means fast or powerful but I end up using it on full Eco mode to match the speed of other road users.

I know many argue about the weight well mine is lighter than most so maybe that helps but was parked next to an Audi Q8 yesterday for me things like that are the problem its HUGE and the wheels are nearly as big as my bonnet totally overkill.

I do accept that battery size needs to tempered mine has 64kw that gives real world 250 or if operating in the safe 20 -80% window a fair chunk less. day to day fine, longer journeys i have to plan cant just assume chargers in Scotland at least will be online.

Running costs are reduced that will take a hit when full road tax is applied next year tho.

For me this car seems to work out if I did not have access to a home charger then no way would i even consider it as not viable at this time, hence why I believe we should be supporting ICE to make it as efficient and clean as possible until there is a viable option for all.

 

[dad_of_jon]

140 cars caught fire because the sprinkler system wasn't working funny how they leave that info until near the end.

@Chippy_Tea 1:50 of a 5 min video of a 5:35 video, the pedant in me says thats less than half way . He's just going through the chain of events and covers everything including ways to mitigate against this. Any car park with an out of order fire suppression system should be closed to vehicles would soon get a repair instigated.

it's rather disappointing that due to the increased risk to the public of the consequences of an ev fire, not much is been done to protect the public.

underground car parking, how many car parks have no fire suppression system. no separation barrier between ev's when charging although this one wasn't.

I have said before people in the UK will unfortunately have to die in such an incident until anything is considered, because extra safety measures cost money.

A cheap tip is to make the EV's park near the car park entrance so they can be removed easier if they catch fire? - but depending on car park design you might not be able to get your car out if the exit is alongside the entrance.

Also not really mentioned is an extractor system to channel fumes away from people in case of fire.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

If you get 100mpg on it, normally that means you've just been driving on battery. Unless they've fixed it, it can't actually work out over 100.

I think that's how they are doing it but looking through the thread 60 to 70 for combined town and B read type driving is the norm obviously on A roads with plenty of dual carriageway it's going to drop a little., these hybrids are designed to switch to battery only whenever they can that's why the mpg figures are so high.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Sadly, being an expert doesn't mean you don't have strong opinions. Covid showed that. And it's caused people to become heavily divisive.

If you have 1,000 experts who say "This isn't likely to happen" it only takes 1 so-called expert to say "It is likely" that people jump on it.

Used a lot of this in a previous job.

it is a fact that lithium ion battery chemistry makes a fire they are involved in harder to extinguish. their chemistry means they generate their own oxygen to keep the fire going once started. with other fire types co2 or foam work.

so on the risk matrix you need to decide if that increased has increased the impact.

you can use information on fires attended to determine if the probability of an ev catching fire is any different than and ICE only vehicle.
How you can account for arson in those numbers I don't know.

If an expert communicates (stache d in this instance) their knowledge I listen if they have valid data to prove it. otherwise it becomes expert opinion and there can be two different opinions from two different experts. - this seems to happen in astrophysics a lot.

For climate change and covid it was a different balance.

I totally agree about the word 'expert' it's overused although you shouldn't dismiss the 1 against the 1000 , as sometimes science does take a leap forward when discoveries are made against the prevailing wisdom. As in the sun revolves around the earth, they were going to string up or burn the dude who suggested otherwise.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Some very valid points about fire safety tho, makes sense to have the EV charging and parking near accessible points.

This car was not being charged and had been stood several days, if the sprinklers had been working this would be a non story

 

[Chippy_Tea]

it's rather disappointing that due to the increased risk to the public of the consequences of an ev fire, not much is been done to protect the public.

ICE cars have been catching fire since they were invented the reason this is a story is its an EV and 140 other cars caught fire but it was not the EV that caused 140 cars to burn it it was the non functioning sprinkler system

 

[dad_of_jon]

ICE cars have been catching fire since they were invented the reason this is a story is its an EV and 140 other cars caught fire but it was not the EV that caused 140 cars to burn it it was the non functioning sprinkler system

the sprinkler would have reduced the damage is his assessment it's not going to stop an EV battery fire, barriers would also have contained the spread and they generally don't need 'maintenance'. unfortunately the majority of multistory car parks were built before the increased fire intensity risk of EV's.

if you pay to park in a multistorey and a fire safety system wasn't working which contributed to your car being burnt to a crisp you'd have a case against the owners, despite disclaimer signs, saying otherwise. payment of a fee gives the car park owners a duty of care to you, and you can argue it was negligent of them to not fix it or at least issue a warning to that effect.

yup 1 car on fire isn't news unless you're the press reporting on riots in sunderland. I wonder if the imbeciles have tried torching an EV, they'd get a lot more than they bargained for. A south african anti car hijack system type of roasting.....

 

[Chippy_Tea]

the sprinkler would have reduced the damage is his assessment it's not going to stop an EV battery fire, barriers would also have contained the spread and they generally don't need 'maintenance'. unfortunately the majority of multistory car parks were built before the increased fire intensity risk of EV's.

As the guy in the video says a working sprinkler system wouldn't have extinguished the fire but it would have kept it in check while the fire brigade arrived and maybe if the system was working it would have alerted the car park owners earlier that there was a problem as it smouldered before the fire began (video below starts there) that would have meant the emergency services arrived sooner.

I do agree with the guy in the video when he says EV's should not be parked underground especially where people live above them EV's should be outside just in case.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

View attachment 102624

Used a lot of this in a previous job.

it is a fact that lithium ion battery chemistry makes a fire they are involved in harder to extinguish. their chemistry means they generate their own oxygen to keep the fire going once started. with other fire types co2 or foam work.

so on the risk matrix you need to decide if that increased has increased the impact.

But the risk matrix needs to take probability into account as well, eg :
Estimates by the Phosphorous, Inorganic & Nitrogen Flame Retardants Association reported 55 fires per billion miles travelled in ICE vehicles and five fires per billion for EVs. A report from AutoinsuranceEX said EVs exhibited 61 times fewer fires per 100,000 sales than ICE vehicles.

“Tesla has reported that between 2012 and 2021 there was approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 210 million miles travelled. This includes fires that did not originate in the vehicle, like arson, structure fires etc. According to the National Fire Protection Association, the national average in the U.S. was one fire per 19 million miles travelled. This suggests Tesla’s EVs are 11 times less likely to catch fire than the average car,” ....

“Most EVs on the road are quite new and many of the vehicle fires in ICE vehicles will relate to old vehicles where components wear out. This could be equally true for older EVs as the battery cells age and the materials used around them to provide thermal management, protection, and fire safety...The switch to sodium-ion from lithium-ion could be another solution to reducing the risk of fires. Despite the fact that this type of battery still comes with a risk, early studies report a lower chance of thermal runaway. Their ability to be transported at zero volts makes them lower risk than lithium-ion when considering transport and assembly,” ... Solid-state batteries are also less likely to overheat.

I totally agree about the word 'expert' it's overused although you shouldn't dismiss the 1 against the 1000 , as sometimes science does take a leap forward when discoveries are made against the prevailing wisdom. As in the sun revolves around the earth, they were going to string up or burn the dude who suggested otherwise.

At the same time - this is really something for people within the speciality to assess, in general the 1 guy in 1000 is just plain wrong but gets used as an excuse to delay painful things. For people on the outside, it makes sense to base their actions on the mainstream opinion within the speciality, as outsiders are not in position to argue otherwise.

 

[AlBrew]

although you shouldn't dismiss the 1 against the 1000

I think you (the general public) should always dismiss the 1 in the 1000 until they're at least up to 3 or 4 hundred out of a thousand.

Let the 1000 trained experts do their thing and decide for you. The only other option is to go to university for a decade, specialise in a specific discipline and be good enough that you earn a place in the 1000 most competent persons in that discipline (displacing another apparently). Who's got time for that!?

 

[Stu]

I do agree with the guy in the video when he says EV's should not be parked underground especially where people live above them EV's should be outside just in case.

What about Hybrids that are 50x more likely to go up in flames and have both downsides of petrol (quick fire) and battery (heavy fire)? Should they be banned?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

What about Hybrids that are 50x more likely to go up in flames and have both downsides of petrol (quick fire) and battery (heavy fire)? Should they be banned?

I don't think I have ever read an article about a hybrid battery starting a fire is this a big problem I am unaware of.

 

[Nicks90]

I don't think I have ever read an article about a hybrid battery starting a fire is this a big problem I am unaware of.

Yes
Same studies that showed EVs were X times less likely to burst in to flames than ice cars, also showed hybrids were much much worse than ice due to their inherited risk from both systems PLUS the hugely complex electrical system that integrates the engine and battery/motor

But no, I don't think it's the battery that's the issue with hybrid, moreso the battery going pop when the associated electrical fire heats it up to the point of no return

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I have been reading up on the Yaris Cross and Hyundai Kona forums for over a year as they are on my shortlist I have yet to see a single thread or post about hybrid fires

 

[Stu]

I have been reading up on the Yaris Cross and Hyundai Kona forums for over a year as they are on my shortlist I have yet to see a single thread or post about hybrid fires

It's a bit like EV fires.

My car comes via Tusker who are now one of the biggest business car leasing companies (they do everyone from the NHS to O2 Telefonica and most companies Sal Sac car schemes)

They were saying they've had 3 EVs burn in the entire time they've been leasing them (which is a number of years). 1 was because of a discarded cigarette. The other 2 were in the car park at Luton.

There's an argument about the accuracy, but the Swedish studies seem to agree

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Are these hybrids "Self charging" or plug in the plug in hybrids have a much bigger battery.

As i said i am a member of two of the biggest Hybrid forums and not one thread or post has been about a members or anyone else's "Self charging" car catching fire