Electric cars.

[Vinylwasp]

Thanks for the links, I'll dive in later. Mine was a Masters too, but marriage, moving from NZ to London, and paying the rent got in the way so I converted to P.G.Dip once I started work in IT. B.Sc. in Geology preceded.

I think I've found the updated 2021 report and only looked at the tables so far though the final analysis moved by about 5% in favor of the C40 Recharge over XC40 Recharge which improved it against the XC40 ICE too, but not by a huge margin. Volvo-c40-recharge-lca-report.pdf

What I think is important in this discussion is realizing that the environment doesn't care where the Co2 comes from, so if people really care about reducing their Co2 footprint they have to look at the big picture and take into account the greater upfront day zero impact of mfg an EV vs their own particular use case. This starts with basing any comparison with the car the drive now or a smaller Co2/km ICE car that they could drive in the future, the mileage they drive it for, and on the EV side of the equation, the size of the battery (do they really need >70 kwh), where they're going to source electricity from, etc, etc. It's simply not a one size fits all equation as the EV marketing teams would have everyone believe.

I know several people who do large commutes or drive within their jobs like you do and for them a full EV makes a lot of sense, on the other hand I know people who have them who do very few miles and for whom solar panels and other lifestyle measures may have been more effective in reducing their Co2 foot print if that is really what they want to achieve.

Here I'm talking about air-flown fruit and vegetables from South America, MENA, etc, as well as water imported from Italy, France, short haul flights to Europe, using public transport or cycling more, changing job to commute less, holiday at home, the whole enchilada.

And not thinking about the big picture is where the moral risk side of this issue comes in. Like cyclists who take greater risks because they're wearing a helmet, it doesn't help the environment if people are morally justifying additional air-miles because they drove to the airport in an EV.

The correct EX30 LCA Report

tl:dr - the biggest benefits come from choosing the variant with the smaller 51kwh LFP battery.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Thanks for the links, I'll dive in later. Mine was a Masters too, but marriage, moving from NZ to London, and paying the rent got in the way so I converted to P.G.Dip once I started work in IT. B.Sc. in Geology preceded.

I think I've found the updated 2021 report and only looked at the tables so far though the final analysis moved by about 5% in favor of the C40 Recharge over XC40 Recharge which improved it against the XC40 ICE too, but not by a huge margin. Volvo-c40-recharge-lca-report.pdf

What I think is important in this discussion is realizing that the environment doesn't care where the Co2 comes from, so if people really care about reducing their Co2 footprint they have to look at the big picture and take into account the greater upfront day zero impact of mfg an EV vs their own particular use case. This starts with basing any comparison with the car the drive now or a smaller Co2/km ICE car that they could drive in the future, the mileage they drive it for, and on the EV side of the equation, the size of the battery (do they really need >70 kwh), where they're going to source electricity from, etc, etc. It's simply not a one size fits all equation as the EV marketing teams would have everyone believe.

I know several people who do large commutes or drive within their jobs like you do and for them a full EV makes a lot of sense, on the other hand I know people who have them who do very few miles and for whom solar panels and other lifestyle measures may have been more effective in reducing their Co2 foot print if that is really what they want to achieve.

Here I'm talking about air-flown fruit and vegetables from South America, MENA, etc, as well as water imported from Italy, France, short haul flights to Europe, using public transport or cycling more, changing job to commute less, holiday at home, the whole enchilada.

And not thinking about the big picture is where the moral risk side of this issue comes in. Like cyclists who take greater risks because they're wearing a helmet, it doesn't help the environment if people are morally justifying additional air-miles because they drove to the airport in an EV.

The big picture may not be visible to all as you need to zoom out a lot to see it.



An economic model based on growth is going to fail if the above happens, plus it usually leads to more consumption of precious resources.

If we do de-populate will we end up consuming more per person because we feel we have more leeway as there are less of us.

 

[Stu]

Here I'm talking about air-flown fruit and vegetables from South America, MENA, etc, as well as water imported from Italy, France, short haul flights to Europe, using public transport or cycling more, changing job to commute less, holiday at home, the whole enchilada.

Oh this we're definitely on the same page.
In fact, my wife applied for a PhD at one point where the output would be "In food terms, could Wales sustain itself"
She didn't get it, but it's always made us both wonder IF we got cut off from the world (and it's not beyond reason), could the UK actually sustain itself? - I mean, it would involve eating seasonal food and so on.

I don't think we could. When we see Class A farming land in East Anglia being used for solar farms. I mean, I love the idea of solar farms, but over planting real food?

 

[Stu]

The big picture may not be visible to all as you need to zoom out a lot to see it.



An economic model based on growth is going to fail if the above happens, plus it usually leads to more consumption of precious resources.

If we do de-populate will we end up consuming more per person because we feel we have more leeway as there are less of us.

Apologies, but you'll have to accept that I don't watch YouTube videos. They're generally shouty people that don't quote their sources. They're certainly not peer reviewed.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Apologies, but you'll have to accept that I don't watch YouTube videos. They're generally shouty people that don't quote their sources. They're certainly not peer reviewed.

To discount a potential good quality source of information because of the mass of mediocre content is your choice. sources are quoted in the video I mentioned. two bit davinci I don't find shouty. it doesn't take long to google "population collapse" and find similar conclusions to the YT video. People have busy lives and don't want to search though a pile of Turds to find a diamond. I get that and especially when even if true won't affect most people in their lifetime.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...-collapse-isn-t-sci-fi-anymore-niall-ferguson

https://www.healthdata.org/news-eve...declines-global-fertility-rates-set-transform

It's partly why I believe a focus on co2 is clouding a far greater issue.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

 

[old dog new tricks]

View attachment 101386

Sats it all about narrow minded Americans

 

[tigertim]

Sats it all about narrow minded Americans

There are plenty in this country, too.

I do find it a really interesting phenomenon; I can't remember anything quite like this previously, where so many usually mild-mannered people get so insanely vexed over something which really doesn't affect them if they choose to ignore it.

You'd think EVs are an alien species which the human race needs to come together to fight, to keep them from taking over and sentencing us all to a life of being transported around in a pleasant manner not dissimilar to that delivered by a fossil-fuelled car.

An EV suits me better than an ICE. An ICE suits my neighbour better than an EV.
I have an EV, he has an ICE. I don't feel like I have to "save" him, and he doesn't feel like he needs to launch into the usual nonsense about artisanal mining or melting power grids. We both just get on with our lives.

Discussion of the pros and cons is healthy, but I do wonder if one day people who vomit out anti-ev propaganda simply as a matter of principle (as in the case of the image above) will stop and wonder what it is they're actually fighting for.

 

[old dog new tricks]

There are plenty in this country, too.

I do find it a really interesting phenomenon; I can't remember anything quite like this previously, where so many usually mild-mannered people get so insanely vexed over something which really doesn't affect them if they choose to ignore it.

You'd think EVs are an alien species which the human race needs to come together to fight, to keep them from taking over and sentencing us all to a life of being transported around in a pleasant manner not dissimilar to that delivered by a fossil-fuelled car.

An EV suits me better than an ICE. An ICE suits my neighbour better than an EV.
I have an EV, he has an ICE. I don't feel like I have to "save" him, and he doesn't feel like he needs to launch into the usual nonsense about artisanal mining or melting power grids. We both just get on with our lives.

Discussion of the pros and cons is healthy, but I do wonder if one day people who vomit out anti-ev propaganda simply as a matter of principle (as in the case of the image above) will stop and wonder what it is they're actually fighting for.

yes I am petrol head I will admit this I like my motor bikes and fast cars and been lucky enough to race when younger, but i now have an EV, its cheaper and allows me to enter the city, does not make it perfect but it serves its purpose.

Do I preach EVs to ICE drivers hell no, likewise they have no right to object to my choices either.

My neighbour is a good point he had an i3 and M4, then he decided the environmental damage of EVs and their batteries was unholy and sold the i3 and returned the M4. Replaced them with a 27 year old Golf diesel and 20 year old diesel Passat. We disagree on the environmental damage his old polluting diesels are when factor on the weeks of grinding welding and painting he does to these old cars

 

[tigertim]

I like my motor bikes

Yep, I have a Honda CRF1000L Africa Twin and I have zero interest in electric motorcycles; for the time being, at least

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Sats it all about narrow minded Americans

To be honest we are having the piss taken out of us and we will go along with it without a fight as that's what we do.

Take the stats below 16 ships (of the 26,438 in the world) emit the same amount of CO2 as all the world’s cars meaning if they were all afloat they would produce 1,652 times the pollution of all the worlds cars yet they pick on the car drivers and will force us all into EV's eventually.

Then we have greenhouse gas emissions by country below -

• ‘The sixteen largest ships emit the same amount of CO2 as all the world’s cars.’
• ‘The world’s seventeen largest ships emit more sulphur than the global car fleet.’
• ‘A seagoing container vessel is just as polluting as up to 50 million cars.’

 

[old dog new tricks]

I totally agree marine sector is wild this is where hydrogen makes sense but expect the backlash form the hydrogen haters yes i know it uses 3 times the electrical energy etc etc , but if you think battery is a viable option with heavy shipping then I must disagree the huge financial outlay and lifespan of the marine sector means a radical change is not economically viable, where as using hydrogen in existing turbine and diesel engines is possible as fraction of the cost.
Aviation is the other big issue that needs a solution as stopping air travel is not viable.

But the big problem is gas power stations making electricity 17.5 Million tonnes of gas used to create electricity or 31% of the electricity used, if we can tackle this then huge steps forward.

As said before needs to be a grown up debate there is still the need for reactive power stations that generate huge amounts on demand, the short to medium term is hydrogen or some other green fuel, making the small steps do add up and eventually change takes hold.

Cars for me are like heat pumps if when it comes to replacing a car or boiler assess the options if an EV or heat pump works for you then try it, If not then wait for the next evolution.

Do i think the ban on any form of ICE will actually happen i am not sure we are not there yet and unless the economy makes massive improvements then not likely to happen.

Do i agree with forceful approach no

 

[Chippy_Tea]

, but if you think battery is a viable option with heavy shipping then I must disagree the huge financial outlay and lifespan of the marine sector means a radical change is not economically viable

 

[tigertim]

the hydrogen haters yes i know it uses 3 times the electrical energy etc etc , but if you think battery is a viable option with heavy shipping then I must disagree

There aren’t any hydrogen haters here as far as I know. I think the discussion earlier in the thread was just making the point that hydrogen doesn’t make much sense in passenger road cars, but there are definitely good applications in larger vehicles and industry, for sure.

 

[Stu]

As someone who regularly watches the ships come in and out of Southampton (albeit at the pointy end), a decent number of them are moving to LPG and hybrid. They really are trying to do something about it.

For the record btw, if I come across as an EV fanatic, I have a heavily modified ICE car too. And if I get my way, may end up with 2 or 3 more! Home Brewing isn't my main money pit.

 

[old dog new tricks]

As someone who regularly watches the ships come in and out of Southampton (albeit at the pointy end), a decent number of them are moving to LPG and hybrid. They really are trying to do something about it.

For the record btw, if I come across as an EV fanatic, I have a heavily modified ICE car too. And if I get my way, may end up with 2 or 3 more! Home Brewing isn't my main money pit.

yes many have moved to gas turbines the advantage being just about any type of gas will work, this is far better than marine diesel (not hard) but still depends on the gas they use. Only down side is turbines can require greater maintenance than marine diesel.

Given the massive surface area of some of these ships begs the question could they use a solar array or wind turbines ?

Not suggesting it due the insane costs and safety implications but the US fit Small Modular Reactors in their aircraft carriers for a reason, it just keep going and does not have to lug around the thousands of tons of fuel it would have needed otherwise

 

[JockyBrewer]

More new battery technology coming to halve charging times.

A 77KwH Polestar was charged from 10-80% in 10 minutes. The only difference to the stock Polestar was the battery, so you could see this appear in cars pretty quickly:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/how-halve-typical-ev-charging-times-no-extra-cost

 

[Stu]

More new battery technology coming to halve charging times.

A 77KwH Polestar was charged from 10-80% in 10 minutes. The only difference to the stock Polestar was the battery, so you could see this appear in cars pretty quickly:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/how-halve-typical-ev-charging-times-no-extra-cost

You might want to have a look at the new Catl batteries
https://electrek.co/2024/04/25/catl-unveils-worlds-first-lfp-battery-4c-ultra-fast-charging/

Can add 60kw in 10 minutes (around 248 miles). The new chargers will be even faster - a 500kw charger could theoretically add 200 miles in 6 minutes.

At that point, the "hanging around waiting for a charge" argument goes out of the window (not that that's an issue for Mr Average who can add 250 miles overnight at home).

 

[Chippy_Tea]

At that point, the "hanging around waiting for a charge" argument goes out of the window (not that that's an issue for Mr Average who can add 250 miles overnight at home).

Always makes me laugh when i see the anti-AV lot using that as an excuse not to buy one, who travels 150+ miles without doing at least one of the following, a toilet break, a brew, a ciggy (if you dont smoke in the car) a stretch of the old legs, plenty of time to top up your battery on a fast charger even the old ones.

 

[Stu]

Always makes me laugh when i see the anti-AV lot using that as an excuse not to buy one, who travels 150+ miles without doing at least one of the following, a toilet break, a brew, a ciggy (if you dont smoke in the car) a stretch of the old legs, plenty of time to top up your battery on a fast charger even the old ones.

I have a wife with IBS. Trust me, 100 miles without a stop is seen as a win in our house