Electric cars.

[Chippy_Tea]

I'm slightly concerned at the heat in your tone, which i hope we can take out of this discussion.

No need to be concerned if there is any heat in my tone its only there because some members dont bother to read the full thread then duplicate earlier posts which have already been discussed.

because the govt are incentivising new cars more effectively than they are incentivising the installation of rapid chargers, the problems the Moto boss describes are getting worse. Because the ratio of cars to chargers is worsening.

Lack of power to the chargers is obviously a problem for the Moto services but its between them and the power company to sort out its not the governments place to tell the power companies where and how many cables they need to provide to power newly installed charging points once the service stations capacity is reaching maximum.

Otherwise stories about major delays will get worse and this will damage the take up.

Where are all these stories about lack of charging points, as i keep saying the majority of EV owners charge at home rapid chargers are only needed if you are travelling further than the range of your car allows as most car parks, supermarkets etc have them it really isn't an issue, we now have 2 changing points in each small pay and display car park of which we have three (two recently installed below) and i think 6 at the Booths supermarket on the outskirts of town meaning 12 in total in a small market town.

In theory, all this should improve, but we haven't yet seen that in practice. And this is why ikt is so damaging that the average experience is getting worse, as EV take-up outruns charger installation. As demonstrated by Moto now feeling the need to marshal the stations.

Where is the evidence to prove "this is why it is so damaging that the average experience is getting worse" members here have posted their experiences and are happy running an EV people i know who have bought an EV (admittedly not many) are also happy they changed they didn't buy the EV with the intention of doing huge daily mileages so can go for days without charging which they do at home at a fraction of the price.

You appear to be basing your argument about the downside of EV ownership on how many chargers are being installed but as has been discussed the majority if not all of the current EV owners charge at home i dont know anyone who owns an EV that doesn't have off street parking.

If you plan to take your EV near to its range limit you will need to plan ahead properly so you know where you can charge it this is all part of the experience of owning an EV you may see that as a huge inconvenience i guess as no owners have mentioned it its not really an issue , i also imagine journeys like this for the majority of EV owners are few and far between they dont buy EV's as motorway mile munchers.

I have said several times in the thread i would go EV tomorrow as my commute and weekly mileage is so low i would probably only need to charge it a couple of times a week the only thing that is stopping me is i dont have off street parking, when on street charging (video below) becomes commonplace i will make the switch as long as they dont charge a ridiculous amount to use their chargers.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I only use motorway service stations for a quick bite and a loo break. Heaven forbid I should fuel or charge up at one. Their energy is charged at a higher rate so no way would I want to be eating service station food. - I stop at major supermarkets just off the motorway network. They have a cafe and toilets, fuel is cheaper it's just a better experience. worked well on a trip up to scotland saved over 10p a litre, so I wonder what charging uptake is like at supermarket given the shoppers are usually local and many may be able to charge from home?

Spot on DoJ.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Ok, so this is only your perception, got it.

Honestly, there is no such thing as range anxiety. It has never crossed my mind and neither has it ever been even close to being an issue for me. Forget what you read, there are enough chargers for you to get wherever you want without even needing to worry about it. Let’s face it, if electric cars were running out of charge all over the place the media would be all over it. It’s not happening. It’s a myth.

I bought my EV in December 2021. I do almost all of my charging at home but we do make regular trips from South Essex to Lincoln (165 miles each way). I leave home with a full charge and get to Lincoln with around 45% charge left. I plug it in to a 22kw charger in the car park we use across the road from my daughters Uni and after 45 minutes I’ve topped up enough to get me home again. Total electricity cost for the whole trip less than £10.00.

In March 2022, three months after getting the car we drove from south Essex to Inverness. We left home with a full charge putting the destination in sat nav and the car directed us to the chargers we needed to stop at on route. As we started to approach the charger the batteries entered pre conditioning mode so they got prepared to accept the fast charge and could charge faster. When we got to each charger we just plugged it in and the car told us when we had enough charge to get to the next one. All in all we stopped three times to charge on the 575 mile trip. Ferrybridge for 17 minutes, Gretna for 19 minutes and Perth for 15 minutes.

Thanks BB its nice to read facts from actual owners.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I promise I don't mean to sound snippy here - but whilst my opinions on EVs are my perception, couldnt the same be said about your statement on range anxiety. You dont suffer from it and thats great, but it's become a wide enough phenomenon to be named. Surely this hasnt all just been made up ?

I think range anxiety become a thing when EVs first hit the news, back then cars couldn't do much more than 120 miles on a full charge (Nissan Leaf IIRC) so obviously as there weren't many places you could charge back then range anxiety was a big thing, things have changed a lot in the last 8 years.

And the media do seem to be reporting on "charger wars" and long queues as raised by the CEO of Moto over the weekend. As one of the main target providers of fast charging on long routes then there is likely something to the issues he raises ? Put another way, it surely cannot be as simple as saying EVs are utopia and that's it ?

Again can i point out to those that may be skipping through the thread its not a problem with lack of chargers at Moto they have plenty of chargers the problem is they do not have enough spare power capacity to allow the new chargers which they have installed to be hooked up they need more power from the grid which i imagine they would soon get if they were to point it out to the power company.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I like that on street jobby. but i live in a street of 12 houses and parking for 5 cars, i think i could live with it though as i don't do a lot of miles these days only 3 or 4 times a year. and it would depend on the price of leccy

 

[MattH1973]

Where are all these stories about lack of charging points, as i keep saying the majority of EV owners charge at home rapid chargers are only needed if you are travelling further than the range of your car allows as most car parks, supermarkets etc have them it really isn't an issue, we now have 2 changing points in each small pay and display car park of which we have three (two recently installed below) and i think 6 at the Booths supermarket on the outskirts of town meaning 12 in total in a small market town.

View attachment 90491


Where is the evidence to prove "this is why it is so damaging that the average experience is getting worse" members here have posted their experiences and are happy running an EV people i know who have bought an EV (admittedly not many) are also happy they changed they didn't buy the EV with the intention of doing huge daily mileages so can go for days without charging which they do at home at a fraction of the price.

You appear to be basing your argument about the downside of EV ownership on how many chargers are being installed but as has been discussed the majority if not all of the current EV owners charge at home i dont know anyone who owns an EV that doesn't have off street parking.

OK. I re-looked up the evidence I read a few months ago.

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...hicle-charging-device-statistics-october-2022Chart 1 on the above link says chargers have broadly tripled in availability in 3 years.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1411261/uk-annual-electric-vehicle-sales/this chart here shows that we are now selling 5x the number of electric vehicles than we were in 2019. I wanted to find a chart of the total stock of EVs but couldnt, but I assume as EVs last longer than 3 years the total stock of EVs on the road is now over 5x the amount from 3 years ago.

This is my "evidence" that the ratio of cars to chargers is worsening. I am worried we are going around in circles on this next point but I will have one more go.... you have said multiple times that most charging is at home and multiple times I have agreed, so let's try to move on from that. My point is that a proportion of journeys will need public chargers, and based on the ratio of EVs to chargers your chance of finding an empty one is worse than it was 3 years ago. As you say about your own case, the availability (and cost of course) of public charging will be really important if EVs aren't to remain niche.

I respect what you give to this forum, Chippy, which has been a wonderful resource for my cider making. I will nevertheless say that I think demanding "evidence" from others in the same post where you demonstrate your own points with local anecdotes is a little unfair. But I hope the data above are helpful.

Again can i point out to those that may be skipping through the thread its not a problem with lack of chargers at Moto they have plenty of chargers the problem is they do not have enough spare power capacity to allow the new chargers which they have installed to be hooked up they need more power from the grid which i imagine they would soon get if they were to point it out to the power company.

I wonder if we had a misunderstanding around my original post. When I talked about grid capacity I meant local as well as national. If your point above is that local hookups may be problematic then I agree. I suspect Moto have tried simply pointing it out to the power company, though.....usually CEOs do that before complaining to the press....

As an aside, I also read that local grid hookups are a huge constraint on housing development and other forms of economic growth.

I realise the national picture has been debated on here in the past.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I like that on street jobby. but i live in a street of 12 houses and parking for 5 cars, i think i could live with it though as i don't do a lot of miles these days only 3 or 4 times a year. and it would depend on the price of leccy

If they installed the post type chargers in every street chances are you could find an empty one close enough to make it work, we have plenty of parking spaces but you are not guaranteed to park outside your own house so these wouldn't be any use but are a good solution if you can usually park outside of your own home.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

My point is that a proportion of journeys will need public chargers, and based on the ratio of EVs to chargers your chance of finding an empty one is worse than it was 3 years ago.

The "proportion of journeys" that will need public chargers will be tiny, the average weekly mileage for all cars is 105 the average battery range for an EV is now 250 - 300 so paying to charge is only going to be an issue when you are going to travel more than 200+ miles in one day, the majority of EV drivers will never do this mileage but if they occasionally have to put their car to the ultimate test as Benfleet Brewery posted below is really not an issue if you have to use public chargers.

Benfleet Brewery posted -

I bought my EV in December 2021. I do almost all of my charging at home but we do make regular trips from South Essex to Lincoln (165 miles each way). I leave home with a full charge and get to Lincoln with around 45% charge left. I plug it in to a 22kw charger in the car park we use across the road from my daughters Uni and after 45 minutes I’ve topped up enough to get me home again. Total electricity cost for the whole trip less than £10.00.

In March 2022, three months after getting the car we drove from south Essex to Inverness. We left home with a full charge putting the destination in sat nav and the car directed us to the chargers we needed to stop at on route. As we started to approach the charger the batteries entered pre conditioning mode so they got prepared to accept the fast charge and could charge faster. When we got to each charger we just plugged it in and the car told us when we had enough charge to get to the next one. All in all we stopped three times to charge on the 575 mile trip. Ferrybridge for 17 minutes, Gretna for 19 minutes and Perth for 15 minutes.

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

The "proportion of journeys" that will need public chargers will be tiny, the average weekly mileage for all cars is 105 the average battery range for an EV is now 250 - 300 so paying to charge is only going to be an issue when you are going to travel more than 200+ miles in one day, the majority of EV drivers will never do this mileage but if they occasionally have to put their car to the ultimate test as Benfleet Brewery posted below is really not an issue if you have to use public chargers.


View attachment 90509View attachment 90510


Benfleet Brewery posted -

I bought my EV in December 2021. I do almost all of my charging at home but we do make regular trips from South Essex to Lincoln (165 miles each way). I leave home with a full charge and get to Lincoln with around 45% charge left. I plug it in to a 22kw charger in the car park we use across the road from my daughters Uni and after 45 minutes I’ve topped up enough to get me home again. Total electricity cost for the whole trip less than £10.00.

In March 2022, three months after getting the car we drove from south Essex to Inverness. We left home with a full charge putting the destination in sat nav and the car directed us to the chargers we needed to stop at on route. As we started to approach the charger the batteries entered pre conditioning mode so they got prepared to accept the fast charge and could charge faster. When we got to each charger we just plugged it in and the car told us when we had enough charge to get to the next one. All in all we stopped three times to charge on the 575 mile trip. Ferrybridge for 17 minutes, Gretna for 19 minutes and Perth for 15 minutes.

The first point here is crucial. You can’t just look at the number of new EVs on the road and the number of new chargers and anticipate issues. The fact that these newer EVs can go so much further on a single charge drastically decreases the need to use public chargers.
The average range of an EV now is 219 miles (double what it was a decade ago) but there are plenty around that can travel over 300 miles on a single charge, and some 400 miles

https://www.gridserve.com/2023/01/0...enough-to-drive-two-weeks-on-a-single-charge/

 

[jof]

Not everyone is lucky enough to own or lease a tesla or be able to write the cost off as a company car!
You need to consider there will be a fair number of people entering the ev space with a 2nd hand leaf as that's all.they can afford.

It's these ordinary folks that need the public charging points, even if they just do 50 miles to visit relatives

 

[Chippy_Tea]

It's these ordinary folks that need the public charging points, even if they just do 50 miles to visit relatives

You would be mad to invest in a second hand EV that can only do 100 miles on a charge if you couldn't home charge even if you only planned on doing short journeys

 

[Nicks90]

Totally agree chippy, you have to enter EV ownership with a sensible practical head on.
Don't buy an EV with a 100-120 mile range (2nd hand leafs, or new minis, Citroen, Vauxhall etc) if your typical use case is over that distance on a very regular basis, or you can't reliably charge from home
If you do, you will be one of these knobheads selling your 'outrage' story to the daily mail on how EVs are crap.

When I drove from Leeds to Chertsey every week for 18 months, I could not and would not put up with an EV. Yes I have a Tesla now and the supercharger network is AWESOME!!! But I just wouldn't have done it. 400 mile round trip with little or no charging at the destination office would have been a chore when all I wanted to do was blast down at 5am to avoid traffic and blast back at 8pm and get home. I would regularly do each leg of that journey in 2.5hours
That isn't sustainable in an EV, as I would need to do a significant top up both ways.

Now I do a long journey (400+ mies) maybe once every 2 months. So the urge to 'get it done' isn't as much of a drain on my personal time as when I did it every week. Full charge before I set off and maybe one 10 minute charge at some point on the way there and 15 mins on the way back and it's sorted.
Tesla charging network is brilliant and the cost - even at motorway services - is 40p/kw
So far I have never - NEVER - had to wait for a charger and never come across a broken one.

Last big journey was Leeds to Stevenage and the whole trip (100% set off, charged at location and then charge back to 100% at home) was £8.79 for a 320 mile round trip.

EVs don't suit everyone due to what they do as a typical journey and where they can charge. But being really realistic, if you drive more than 200 miles per day and never pass a super charger and can't charge from home, then I would suggest you stick with a diesel
But that really is a narrow niche excuse for none EV ownership

 

[Nicks90]

Not everyone is lucky enough to own or lease a tesla or be able to write the cost off as a company car!
You need to consider there will be a fair number of people entering the ev space with a 2nd hand leaf as that's all.they can afford.

It's these ordinary folks that need the public charging points, even if they just do 50 miles to visit relatives

I would say anyone considering a second hand EV to hold their horses for a couple of years.
The pickings are slim at the moment, as you are either stuck with low range leafs, or higher priced prestige vehicles.
In another 2 or 3 years there will be half a million Tesla model 3 and Y, VW id3/4 and various Skoda and Volvo EVs entering the second hand market.
I anticipate the price of a second hand Tesla being very comparable to a similar age and mileage typical ex lease ICE car. Same for the VW and other EVs that are selling well. Deprecation seems to be a bit heavy in those first 3 years on EVs at the moment
It would not surprise me if the other popular 2nd hand buys like the VW golf and BMW 3 series really start to depreciate rapidly, as why would you buy a 3 year old 30k mile golf for the samr price as a 3 year old VW id3 that costs less to run?

 

[dad_of_jon]

I do get range anxiety on my e-bike on occasion. The battery gauge doesn't help it measures the voltage of the battery which is prone to sag under load. I hoped to get 50 miles on a charge but usually limit myself to 36 or so to be safe and to not run the battery too low. If the battery died I can cycle the bike at around 8-10 mph but only if its on the flat not uphill

I went to tesco earlier at around 4pm. - went in none of the 4 ev spots in use. Came out and a mazda mx-30 was in an ev space but not charging. - no cable plugged in.

Either he couldn't get the app working to allow him to charge or..........
it says for electric cars only, and he's in one so he got a space right next to the entrance.

It should have said for CHARGING electric cars only

I did see that there is an improved method for dealing with ev fires. Using chilled brine, There are tests going on to trial this on car ferry ships............


I had the opportunity to participate in a successful full-scale test of a newly installed Brine firefighting system on board the MS Norröna. The test was carried out in Torshavn at the pier. Smyril Line is one of the first companies in the world to have investigated the use of Brine for firefighting, cooling and suppression in an electric car. Brine is a solution of water with a high concentration of sodium chloride. This salt concentration is still liquid at a temperature of minus 23 degrees and therefore an excellent coolant for battery fire. The inspiration and idea arise from the fishing industry, where the coolant has been used for e.g., freezing of crabs.

The provoked fire continued for 8 minutes, before firefighters placed the Brine cooling unit through the rear window and the system was activated. What surprised me was how intact the driver and passenger seat were after the test and how little damage the car encountered.

I would like to thank Smyril Line for this excellent chance to take part in their test and the knowledge sharing.

This new firefighting method for EV lithium batteries has been patented by Smyril Line
Activate to view larger image,

I'm glad to see someone is working on a solution before a serious loss of life occurs rather than afterwards.

The scandaniavia countries especially as they use ferries a lot.

https://www.connexionfrance.com/art...e-steps-to-reduce-electric-vehicle-fire-risk.

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

I would say anyone considering a second hand EV to hold their horses for a couple of years.
The pickings are slim at the moment, as you are either stuck with low range leafs, or higher priced prestige vehicles.
In another 2 or 3 years there will be half a million Tesla model 3 and Y, VW id3/4 and various Skoda and Volvo EVs entering the second hand market.
I anticipate the price of a second hand Tesla being very comparable to a similar age and mileage typical ex lease ICE car. Same for the VW and other EVs that are selling well. Deprecation seems to be a bit heavy in those first 3 years on EVs at the moment
It would not surprise me if the other popular 2nd hand buys like the VW golf and BMW 3 series really start to depreciate rapidly, as why would you buy a 3 year old 30k mile golf for the samr price as a 3 year old VW id3 that costs less to run?

Yep, even today £13k will get you a 3 year old MG ZS EV that’ll return a quoted 163 mile range. £20k will get you a 2 year old trophy model returning 196 miles per charge or a 2022 plate here giving 273 miles is up for less than £22k.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202309292477460

 

[dad_of_jon]

Yep, even today £13k will get you a 3 year old MG ZS EV that’ll return a quoted 163 mile range. £20k will get you a 2 year old trophy model returning 196 miles per charge or a 2022 plate here giving 273 miles is up for less than £22k.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202309292477460

If I do get another car, i'll need one with "old fart assist" to stop me wandering in a lane, forgetting where i'm going after getting in car and not driving everywhere at 15mph. - I'm under no illusions about what my driving skills may be like past 70 years old.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I'm under no illusions about what my driving skills may be like past 70 years old

Don't worry DOJ i am past that point and my driving skills are spot on, it's the drivers of German cars who are the problem the rules don't apply to them and they have no indicators

 

[MattH1973]

The "proportion of journeys" that will need public chargers will be tiny, the average weekly mileage for all cars is 105 the average battery range for an EV is now 250 - 300 so paying to charge is only going to be an issue when you are going to travel more than 200+ miles in one day, the majority of EV drivers will never do this mileage but if they occasionally have to put their car to the ultimate test as Benfleet Brewery posted below is really not an issue if you have to use public chargers.


View attachment 90509

Surely the chart above is heavily impacted by lockdown (even accounting for the slightly misleading scale on the y axis), so I am not sure this adds much. On the broader point it seems we are at an impasse - I have said many times now that I agree the proportion of journeys that need a public charger will be very small, I even said in my previous post that there was no need to repeat it as I had acknowledged I agreed - but that does not deal with my point that the ratio of cars to chargers matters, and will be important in giving a critical mass of drivers the confidence to make the switch. Put another way, as a bare minimum I am sure we could manage with less petrol stations than we have now, but convenience matters.

The first point here is crucial. You can’t just look at the number of new EVs on the road and the number of new chargers and anticipate issues. The fact that these newer EVs can go so much further on a single charge drastically decreases the need to use public chargers.
The average range of an EV now is 219 miles (double what it was a decade ago) but there are plenty around that can travel over 300 miles on a single charge, and some 400 miles

https://www.gridserve.com/2023/01/0...enough-to-drive-two-weeks-on-a-single-charge/

The above said, I do take the points that increased range and better tech to help people find chargers will help reduce the overall need. Nevertheless, my sense is that many more chargers will be needed in key locations like motorway services, as only a relative minority of people will want to hunt around for a charger. Presumably this is why we are starting to see queues at motorway points today being reported in the media. Confidence matters, and most users wont always be as rational as the patient home brewers on here. And assuming on street chargers for people who cannot home charge will in practice be public chargers, I still feel the ratio will need to substantially improve.

I realise others feel differently - time will tell who is right. I think we have probably gone as far as we can on the theory !

 

[dad_of_jon]

Don't worry DOJ i am past that point and my driving skills are spot on, it's the drivers of German cars who are the problem the rules don't apply to them and they have no indicators

Earlier a guy in an A class pulled out on me from a side street whilst I was cycling doing more than 20 on my estate closely followed by a mid range merc turning across oncoming traffic to get though a small gap in the oncoming traffic having previously had his eyes looking at his crotch (or mobile)

If I ever feel brave enough to get a German car i'm going for A Bavarian Money Waster - the numpties seem to have migrated to Mercedes and Audi.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Surely the chart above is heavily impacted by lockdown

Are you on some kind of wind up the chart spans 10 years how can it be heavily impacted by the COVID lockdown?

, so I am not sure this adds much.

The chart clearly shows the average driver could easily get rid of their ICE driven car and switch to EV if they have off street parking as the average daily drive in the UK is well within maximum mileage the EV will travel on a single charge.
Even if you take the mid point at 7000 miles you are still only looking at 135 miles per week so my original argument about the majority of EV owners not needing public chargers still stands.

but that does not deal with my point that the ratio of cars to chargers matters, and will be important in giving a critical mass of drivers the confidence to make the switch.

You keep banging on about lack of chargers this is in your head not in the real world as has been said several times by actual owners here if you charge at home (as i imagine 99% of all EV drivers do) you dont need to use a public charger, on the odd occasion you do venture further from home you will find as has been discussed in the two posts below charging points are not like hens teeth as you keep trying to make out!


Have another read of actual owners experience again -

Totally agree chippy, you have to enter EV ownership with a sensible practical head on.
Don't buy an EV with a 100-120 mile range (2nd hand leafs, or new minis, Citroen, Vauxhall etc) if your typical use case is over that distance on a very regular basis, or you can't reliably charge from home
If you do, you will be one of these knobheads selling your 'outrage' story to the daily mail on how EVs are ****.

When I drove from Leeds to Chertsey every week for 18 months, I could not and would not put up with an EV. Yes I have a Tesla now and the supercharger network is AWESOME!!! But I just wouldn't have done it. 400 mile round trip with little or no charging at the destination office would have been a chore when all I wanted to do was blast down at 5am to avoid traffic and blast back at 8pm and get home. I would regularly do each leg of that journey in 2.5hours
That isn't sustainable in an EV, as I would need to do a significant top up both ways.

Now I do a long journey (400+ mies) maybe once every 2 months. So the urge to 'get it done' isn't as much of a drain on my personal time as when I did it every week. Full charge before I set off and maybe one 10 minute charge at some point on the way there and 15 mins on the way back and it's sorted.
Tesla charging network is brilliant and the cost - even at motorway services - is 40p/kw
So far I have never - NEVER - had to wait for a charger and never come across a broken one.

Last big journey was Leeds to Stevenage and the whole trip (100% set off, charged at location and then charge back to 100% at home) was £8.79 for a 320 mile round trip.

EVs don't suit everyone due to what they do as a typical journey and where they can charge. But being really realistic, if you drive more than 200 miles per day and never pass a super charger and can't charge from home, then I would suggest you stick with a diesel
But that really is a narrow niche excuse for none EV ownership

And another -

I bought my EV in December 2021. I do almost all of my charging at home but we do make regular trips from South Essex to Lincoln (165 miles each way). I leave home with a full charge and get to Lincoln with around 45% charge left. I plug it in to a 22kw charger in the car park we use across the road from my daughters Uni and after 45 minutes I’ve topped up enough to get me home again. Total electricity cost for the whole trip less than £10.00.

In March 2022, three months after getting the car we drove from south Essex to Inverness. We left home with a full charge putting the destination in sat nav and the car directed us to the chargers we needed to stop at on route. As we started to approach the charger the batteries entered pre conditioning mode so they got prepared to accept the fast charge and could charge faster. When we got to each charger we just plugged it in and the car told us when we had enough charge to get to the next one. All in all we stopped three times to charge on the 575 mile trip. Ferrybridge for 17 minutes, Gretna for 19 minutes and Perth for 15 minutes.