Durden Park - Old British Beers

[An Ankoù]

Thanks very much. I did find the recipe, somewhere in the conversation I started referring to the wrong book! Now reacquainted with my Durden Park book again!

My 45L of Morrell & Co 1889 Bitter (not Durden Park) started fermenting last night (after a very long brewday yesterday). Mashing Chavallier malt "Hochkurz" fashion (mashed for 2 hours 40 minutes in 4 steps, the bulk at 62-3C) seems to work well; I was 3 points over estimated OG. Remains to be seen if the wort's fermentability was improved.

Thanks peebee. I found the recipe for your Morrells Bitter on my printer this morning and couldn't remember why I'd printed it. Going to give it a good looking at, together with the entire blogspot.

 

[peebee]

The kooky mash schedule certainly worked for me. SG after 4 days is 1.0115 (precise "pycnometer" testing, not uncertain hydrometer), or close on 80% attenuation. Quite astonishing for Chavallier barley malt and "Ringwood" yeast (WYeast 1187). Guess those old timers knew a thing or two about mashing!



The yeast is notorious for being "difficult" (stuck ferments, even if you get it to ferment) so plenty of recommendations to only use "fresh". Mine was 5½ months old! Still in "best before" but a lame duck in a lot of peoples eyes (me too based on past performance). But using a new attitude towards "difficult" starters, start very small (200ml starter) and step up (4 steps in all, over 4 days), the yeast performed very well (for 45L batch):

The "Ringwood" yeast is new for me in these historic recipes. Normally I'd reach for the Whitbread Ale yeast (not the 1098 "dry" one, the WYeast 1099 one) or else the dried S-33 yeast.

 

[Cwrw666]

So, yesterday brewed my first one from the book - No. 2 1897 Harris- Browne Tonic Ale.

I did a 4 gallon brew so this is the recipe:

6Lb pale malt
2Lb 1oz Flaked rice
22oz sugar

76g Fuggles (I did 38g at 80m and 38g at 30m plus 15g at flameout instead of dry hopping it)

Yeast: CML 5

Target OG was 1.055

First problem - got my brew length wrong and it came out at 4.5 instead of 4 gallons.
Second problem - OG was 1.062
So if this gets down to an FG of 1.010 it's going to be about 7% ABV.

 

[An Ankoù]

So, yesterday brewed my first one from the book - No. 2 1897 Harris- Browne Tonic Ale.

I did a 4 gallon brew so this is the recipe:

6Lb pale malt
2Lb 1oz Flaked rice
22oz sugar

76g Fuggles (I did 38g at 80m and 38g at 30m plus 15g at flameout instead of dry hopping it)

Yeast: CML 5

Target OG was 1.055

First problem - got my brew length wrong and it came out at 4.5 instead of 4 gallons.
Second problem - OG was 1.062
So if this gets down to an FG of 1.010 it's going to be about 7% ABV.

I work on a general rule of 10 lb malt in 5 gallons to give an OG of 1050. So the rice yields a bit less and the sugar a bit more so you're spot on with 1062.5 (according to my scaling) with 4 gallons, but 4½ gallons should be 1055.55.

What size gallons are you using? Imperial or US?

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I work o

I work on a general rule of 10 lb malt in 5 gallons to give an OG of 1050. So the rice yields a bit less and the sugar a bit more so you're spot on with 1062.5 (according to my scaling) with 4 gallons, but 4½ gallons should be 1055.55.

What size gallons are you using? Imperial or US?

Gallons how retro I use Rods, Poles or Perches.

 

[An Ankoù]

Gallons how retro I use Rods, Poles or Perches.

Durden Park recipes are given in gallons (and bushels of barley).

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I think I'll order 10 groats worth then.

 

[Cwrw666]

What size gallons are you using? Imperial or US?

UK obviously. Must be down to my awesome efficiency.

BTW even my kids (early twenties) are perfectly comfortable with imperial as well as metric units. I suppose Cheshire Cat has to convert all his road signs into Km before he knows where he is.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

No I convert to leagues, but if Lord Snooty (JRM) gets his way it's back to furlongs, British Thermal units and LSD.

 

[An Ankoù]

Looking at the very last recipe in the book #131 Imperial Brown Stout (1856) Barclay Perkins.
This calls for 4.33 oz Goldings in a gallon, that's 540g per 20 litres of bittering hops, which are going to give something around 300 IBUs. I don't see this amount of hops in any other recipe, let alone other versions of BP's Imperial Brown Stout. Does anyone think it's likely to be right or could it be a typo?
Thanks.

 

[Hanglow]

Does seem a bit much, the amounts I've done before in those big stouts was the equivalent of about 150 IBU (calculated). 250g of goldings in that beer should be enough I'd have thought!

 

[Cwrw666]

So, yesterday brewed my first one from the book - No. 2 1897 Harris- Browne Tonic Ale.

I did a 4 gallon brew so this is the recipe:

6Lb pale malt
2Lb 1oz Flaked rice
22oz sugar

76g Fuggles (I did 38g at 80m and 38g at 30m plus 15g at flameout instead of dry hopping it)

Yeast: CML 5

Target OG was 1.055

First problem - got my brew length wrong and it came out at 4.5 instead of 4 gallons.
Second problem - OG was 1.062
So if this gets down to an FG of 1.010 it's going to be about 7% ABV.

It's taken nearly 3 weeks to ferment out but bottled it today at an FG of 1009.
Tasted pleasant enough at bottling though I'd have preferred it a bit hoppier TBH.
Think this one will need to condition for a while to be at it's best.

 

[An Ankoù]

Does seem a bit much, the amounts I've done before in those big stouts was the equivalent of about 150 IBU (calculated). 250g of goldings in that beer should be enough I'd have thought!

Well I fired off an enquiry to Durden Park and they were kind enough to check their archives and come back to me within the hour. The upshot is that, although the quality of the hops of the day was unknown, the alpha acid content was probably somewhere around 5%, and that the recipe fits in with other beers around the time and is as close as they can estimate. So it's right.

 

[Slid]

That is interesting, @An Ankoù. Having pondered a while, I suspect that the best way to brew the "huge" beers in the DP pamphlet is to go for a Parti-Gyle approach. Do enough grain (e.g. 7- 8 kg max in the damn GF) for maybe 10-12 Litres of the main, high strength beer, then remove 12-15L of wort for the main beer and perform a second mash on the grain, perhaps with something like crystal added, which does not require mashing, to perhaps 40% the OG of the first.

To return to the hopping rates, a theme of the DP beers seems would seem to be the idea of a "lush" product from over-bittering and leaving the super-strength beers for up to 2 years to "mellow out". This may well be the way it was done then.

For some weird reason, the idea of "mellowing out" brings back a memory of Ted Nugent's famous opening address to his audience - "Anyone who want to Mellow Out better turn around and get the fek outta here..."

 

[telenomus]

Well I fired off an enquiry to Durden Park and they were kind enough to check their archives and come back to me within the hour. The upshot is that, although the quality of the hops of the day was unknown, the alpha acid content was probably somewhere around 5%, and that the recipe fits in with other beers around the time and is as close as they can estimate. So it's right.

I've probably missed this in other posts, and I don't see it available from shops, but what are most people using as a substitute for Amber malt?

 

[An Ankoù]

Amber malt is available at most suppliers. Pale Amber isn't. Durden Park give instructions for roasting your own, but I find Simpson's Imperial Malt a perfectly good substitute.

 

[telenomus]

Sorry, that was supposed to read "Pale Amber", not Amber ! Thanks.

 

[peebee]

I've been trying out that "Imperial Malt" as a potential substitute for Pale Amber. Not that I know what Pale Amber tasted like or tried to make the stuff to DPBC instructions.

I picked a recipe that I'd used Simpson's Amber Malt in (Fuller's 1845 clone) and replaced the 10% Amber with 75% (!) Imperial Malt. Seems good so far but not ready for drinking yet. I was sceptical about the claims it was diastatic, it having been roasted to EBC 30; I was completely wrong, the brewhouse efficiency was 78% (I normally count on 75%). The beer is close on 7% ABV which perhaps I wasn't expecting.

As for Amber Malt, that can be very variable: Simpson's creates a wonderful mild grainy/coffee (?) flavour, where as Warminster's was distinctly roasty. Crisp's I guess will be more like Simpson's, Thomas Fawcett's more like Warminster's?

 

[An Ankoù]

I've been trying out that "Imperial Malt" as a potential substitute for Pale Amber. Not that I know what Pale Amber tasted like or tried to make the stuff to DPBC instructions.

I picked a recipe that I'd used Simpson's Amber Malt in (Fuller's 1845 clone) and replaced the 10% Amber with 75% (!) Imperial Malt. Seems good so far but not ready for drinking yet. I was sceptical about the claims it was diastatic, it having been roasted to EBC 30; I was completely wrong, the brewhouse efficiency was 78% (I normally count on 75%). The beer is close on 7% ABV which perhaps I wasn't expecting.

As for Amber Malt, that can be very variable: Simpson's creates a wonderful mild grainy/coffee (?) flavour, where as Warminster's was distinctly roasty. Crisp's I guess will be more like Simpson's, Thomas Fawcett's more like Warminster's?

That's why I have no qualms in using it. Although DP five a colour range for Pale Amber a little lower than Imperial, there must have been such a variation between batches as to make Imperial an acceptable substitute. As for it being diastatic, I've made a SMaSH with it! It's a bit overpowering when young, but when it has conditioned for a few months, it's quite a good beer. It's certainly nicer than DP recipe #1, the Cobb and Co offering, which contains so much ordinary amber that it leaves you thirstier than when you started.

But again. When it's mellowed down a couple of months, it's a really refreshing beer. Just different.

 

[peebee]

… It's certainly nicer than DP recipe #1, the Cobb and Co offering, which contains so much ordinary amber that it leaves you thirstier than when you started.

I've got that down as one to try soon, after you mentioned it in another thread* … but you're not "selling" it here! I'll add a drop more water - that should make it thirst quenching.


EDIT: *"Another thread"? It were earlier in this one!
EDIT2: Okay, I see you've edited in some "selling", so I'll keep the "Cobb & Co" offering on the "try next" list.