Czech pilsner - recipe critique

[stripeyjoe]

Hi all,
I picked up 50g of Lupomax Saaz hops and some Kveik Voss yeast at BrewCon, am thinking of using them in a Bohemian/Czech style pilsner. This is my first attempt at a recipe, loosely based on David Heath’s guide.
How does this sound? I have added some carapils for head retention and Melanoidin to give a bit of a decotion feel to it. Thanks in advance!

 

[Leon103]

Personally I wouldn't use that yeast in a pilsner.

 

[prog99]

Personally I wouldn't use that yeast in a pilsner.

Especially at this time of year!

I've a Czech Pilsner lagering at the moment done with CML Hell. Dropped crystal clear, must keg it soon.

 

[RichardM]

That looks like a lot of hops for a Pilsner

 

[stripeyjoe]

Thanks for the feedback!

Especially at this time of year!

I’ll be pressure fermenting at around 23C so hoping it comes out fairly clean though could just get a bohemian yeast such as M84 in when I order the grains and ferment at 10-15.

That looks like a lot of hops for a Pilsner

It comes out with an IBU of 36, the guide for a premium Czech pilsner is 30-45. I guess there is a lot I’m sticking in at the end, hoping to accentuate the Saaz flavour, I could cut back there as they’re not adding much in terms of bitterness.

How‘s the grain bill sound? Wondering if I should cut out one of the speciality malts and boost the pale a tad.

 

[Leon103]

Thanks for the feedback!


I’ll be pressure fermenting at around 23C so hoping it comes out fairly clean though could just get a bohemian yeast such as M84 in when I order the grains and ferment at 10-15.


It comes out with an IBU of 36, the guide for a premium Czech pilsner is 30-45. I guess there is a lot I’m sticking in at the end, hoping to accentuate the Saaz flavour, I could cut back there as they’re not adding much in terms of bitterness.

How‘s the grain bill sound? Wondering if I should cut out one of the speciality malts and boost the pale a tad.

I think everything is ok apart from the yeast. I hate the flavour it gives. I would go with cml hell. I use 3 packs in 28l

 

[Dorst]

The malt bill looks a bit too complex for a Czech lager. It should be mostly pilsner malt (bohemian floor-malted would be nicest), perhaps a tiny spec of something like caravienna/caramunich to add some breadcrust and colour, and indeed a melanoidin malt to mimic the decoction mashing/add colour.

Kveik Voss at lower temperatures is quite neutral but it's far from a lager profile. It does drop out of suspension nice and quick so I can see why you would want to use it.

35 IBU is good for a Czech lager - I think Pilsner Urquel is supposed to have 40. And Saaz is a great hop for it! I would not bother with a hopstand for a lager: 60 / 10 minute additions should work just fine.

 

[matt76]

This very old post is worth a read (along with the subsequent few posts) if you're making a Czech Pils to get an apparently first hand eyewitness account of how the Czechs at least used to do it.

Doesn't mean you have to do it like that, but at least gives an idea what to aim for. I'm surprised at the apparently high use of hops, especially late on.

FWIW I wouldn't go anywhere near this style with Kweik.

Personally I wouldn't use CML Hell either as I've had one too many "meh" brews with it.

I'd take W-34/70 as a safe middle of the road option, though I have an as yet unproven hunch that if you choose wisely from the wider choice of liquid yeast strains available it will take you from a good beer to a great beer.

 

[Leon103]

This very old post is worth a read (along with the subsequent few posts) if you're making a Czech Pils to get an apparently first hand eyewitness account of how the Czechs at least used to do it.

Doesn't mean you have to do it like that, but at least gives an idea what to aim for. I'm surprised at the apparently high use of hops, especially late on.

FWIW I wouldn't go anywhere near this style with Kweik.

Personally I wouldn't use CML Hell either as I've had one too many "meh" brews with it.

I'd take W-34/70 as a safe middle of the road option, though I have an as yet unproven hunch that if you choose wisely from the wider choice of liquid yeast strains available it will take you from a good beer to a great beer.

What was meh with the brews/yeast

 

[stripeyjoe]

Taken all the advice on and read the 'historic' post!
Swapped to the floor malted pilsner and fiddled a bit with the hops, the post linked to suggests around 40IBU with 75% coming from FWH and 25% from the late addition plus a 'generous handful' chucked in at 70C, I've amended that to a 75C hop stand. Also swapped to a more conventional yeast, not sure I'd actually need 3 packets though, I think that is Brewfather's over cautious approach to pitching levels.

Next thing to deal with is my London water, there's a 'spotless' (About the Company - SpotlessWater) distributer near to me so might look at setting up an account with them, can fill up my fermenter with 35l of RO water for around a £1...

 

[matt76]

What was meh with the brews/yeast

Good question! Now I had to rack my brains for the details...

I mentioned it a couple of months back but the Baltic Porter I made with CML Hell was tip top, but a Munich Helles and Munich Dunkel I made just weren't satisfactory. In the Helles it just never cleared up, i.e. the yeast never settled out properly. Much harder to see this in the Dunkel of course, but holding it up to the light you could see it had a bit of haze, and it just had a yeasty background note - not full on like a Hefeweizen or Witbier, but it was there and you could taste it.

I like CML, they seem really good guys and I continue buying my hops from them but I've stopped using their yeasts now (Pia was another one, it just kept on going and going, slowly dropping an extra gravity point just when you thought it was done. It drove me up the wall!).

I'm well aware many other brewers have had great success with CML yeasts so if they're happy with the results then more power to them. But personally I'd rather spend a couple of quid more and use something different where I feel I get more consistent, reliable and predictable results (or it could just be pure chance/luck!).

In the case of the Helles I re-made it shortly after with W-34/70 and was much happier with the result, though I still don't think it was as good as my first ever Helles which was fermented with WY2206.

(I've also tried Lallemand Diamond Lager in Mexican Lager which I was also pleased with though I think I've only used that strain once.)

I think there's a lot of truth in the adage that brewers make wort, yeast makes beer. Certainly some of the split batches I've done have been very surprising. I wonder if this is particularly true with pale lagers where you really have very little room to hide, so perhaps yeast selection can have a bigger impact on the result.

Which is not to suggest that I think dry/liquid yeast is better/worse (god forbid we go down that rabbit hole again!). For example, if W-34/70 was terrible it wouldn't be so widely used. But I think as homebrewers if you're searching for that last little extra something then I think it's clear liquid offers wider variety and more choice.

 

[stripeyjoe]

Just ordered it from Malt Miller's, hopefully will have time to brew between xmas and new year and, after fermentation, keg and leave it in my shed until the weather starts warming and then stick in the fridge if it needs longer. Will report back in a few months on how successful or not it was!