Cost of the boil.

[Brew_DD2]

Yet in 2022, the best educated brewers at the breweries with the most to gain financially from shortening the boil, aren't. They are investing money and time in developing brewing systems that shave degrees of boil temperature.

https://www.foodandwine.com/news/no-boil-beer-brewing-ab-inbev

Excuse me if I don't follow Ab-InBevs lead.

 

[Brew_DD2]

Is this based on your say so or scientific proof?

Science in beer is only of interest to me when it impacts on the final product. All else is academic and of little real world value.

 

[Brew_DD2]

I just want to make it clear, that I'm fully aware of just how important science is on any technical pursuit, especially brewing. I love getting caught up in the science behind beer. What I take issue with, is people implying or stating that you won't produce proper beer unless you brew just like AB-InBev. It simply isn't borne out in reality.

 

[Sadfield]

Excuse me if I don't follow Ab-InBevs lead.

You can do what ever you want with your brews. The above weren't posted to sway your brewing practices, but to question your (still) unsubstantiated claims and assertions. The science around boiling is well documented witj breweries and homebrewers continuing to follow it for good reason. There's a degree of comfirmation bias and arrogance in saying it is ill inform claptrap because it isn't detectable to your taste.

 

[Sadfield]

What I take issue with, is people implying or stating that you won't produce proper beer unless you brew just like AB-InBev.

Where has anyone said that?

 

[Brew_DD2]

There's a degree of comfirmation bias and arrogance in saying it is ill inform claptrap because it isn't detectable to your taste.

Read the original post I quoted and took issue with for that. No confirmation bias at all here. I actually always expected the beers I brewed with a 30 minute boil to be missing something compared the widely-used 60 minute. I was wrong, and changed my brewing practice subsequently. Why would I boil for another 30 minutes if I can't taste, see or smell any difference? In what way is a 60 minute boil better, if the difference can only be measured in a lab?

Like I say, if people choose to do a 60 or 90 minute boil because they're told it's the right way, that's fine, but it is bollocks to say it only "resembles beer" if you boil for less time.

 

[Brew_DD2]

Where has anyone said that?

There was a link posted that said that the pros (them) are looking at ways to reduce temperature because boil length is sacred. Implication.being, that if they're doing it, then it must be right.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Anyhow, as for the cost of the boil, it may be worth considering the value too.

I'm inclined to follow this guys advice of a vigorous boil for 60+ minutes.

This was certainly an interesting listen .

I do wonder how the difference in scale between home brewers and commercial breweries impacts the effects of the boil. A lot of the cited research (including Dr Bamforth's) is naturally for commercial breweries (as they can afford to fund the studies). A rolling/vigourous boil in a 15 barrel kettle is going to be quite different to a 5 gallon kettle, which will naturally affect wort agitation (protein coagulation) and DMS boil-off. Crisps list the same things that Dr Bamforth does of importance in the boil (vigour, rate of energy, duration) but then says this is "essentially the evaporation rate". Commercial guidance for boiloff (evaporation) rate varies, but generally 3-7% from a random selection of internet pages (Crisps say at least 6% evaporation for an hour, O'Rourke says 4-12%). I have a feeling that homebrewers have read 'vigourous' and been boiling at unnecessarily high rates because that's what the research has said. Looking at some of the photos of gas-powered homebrewers with their monster burners I can fully expect that the relative (to vessel size/dimension) boil power of home brewers is much larger than commercial breweries. A quick search on the forums has people saying/recommending a boil-off of 10-15% with some brewers stating as high as 20% boiloff.

Looking at my own (normal, before my original post that created so much hate ) stats, my pre-boil volume was 28l, with 3l of boil-off. That's 10.7%. I didn't take a reading from my reduced-power boil but even if it dropped down to 2l, that would 7%, which is in-line with commercial brewery recommendations. So my 'reduced power' boil (not a simmer, it still had plenty of bubbles breaching the surface, just not a volcano) is probably actually in line with the guidance offered by Dr Bamforth, O'Rourke etc.

I wonder whether this is why so many home-brewers (including Brulosophy) don't get DMS in their beers - the home-brew boil is sufficiently powerful (even at what seems to be a 'timid' boil) to drive off DMS and achieve the required hot break.

 

[Sadfield]

@Brew

There was a link posted that said that the pros (them) are looking at ways to reduce temperature because boil length is sacred. Implication.being, that if they're doing it, then it must be right.

Because, from a technical and scientific basis, it is, look at the half life of smm as researched by Wilson & Booer. Inbev are brewing beer for millions of tasters. It was posted in response to your claim that long boils were outdated and unnecessary, 1970s practices, because one individual, you, can't taste the difference. Arrogant.

 

[Brew_DD2]

@Brew

Because, from a technical and scientific basis, it is, look at the half life of smm as researched by Wilson & Booer. Inbev are brewing beer for millions of tasters. It was posted in response to your claim that long boils were outdated and unnecessary, 1970s practices, because one individual, you, can't taste the difference. Arrogant.

The original post was arrogant and demeaning to the poster it was replying to. It was met with the appropriate response in my opinion. The narrative that long boil is only way to produce real beer is outdated, and inaccurate. The internet is awash with brewers that boil for shorter periods of time and are happy with the results (not just me). Anecdote is anecdote, but perhaps the DMS data just isn't particularly important for us.

If your primary concern is reducing the levels of something that because it's "right", then crack on. I'll stick with worrying about things that I can taste. I'm brewing for me, not Ab-InBev, a lab, or for shelf stability.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Someone should probably tell David Heath he's doing it all wrong:



I do wonder when "modern modified malts" became a thing and what proportion of SMM used to exist in 'the old days' and what it is now.

 

[Brew_DD2]

Someone should probably tell David Heath he's doing it all wrong:

I do wonder when "modern modified malts" became a thing and what proportion of SMM used to exist in 'the old days' and what it is now.

People do roundly criticise David Heath. I certainly don't agree with everything he says. Good peer-reviewed texts are definitely the gold standard, but it doesn't mean that they are the only way. Otherwise we'd better all start investing in centrifuges and other pieces of equipment that the big boys invest in.

 

[Sadfield]

Again the same unsubstantiated claims about smm and breweries doing things out of habit.

No one is saying you can't short boil, just stop making wild claims to fit your beliefs.


@Brew_DD2 I think @Bolsover Brewer was implying that 15 minutes isn't long enough to have much affect on a number of parameters, so doing no boil would still return a passable beer. Rather than, you're not making beer, so why bother.

 

[Brew_DD2]

No one is saying you can't short boil, just stop making wild claims to fit your beliefs.

No wild claims at all. It's not wild to say that DMS isn't a big deal for us and it's an outdated belief to say it is.

Anyways, I frankly don't give a **** how people brew their beer, because that's what it is. Their beer.

 

[Brew_DD2]

@Brew_DD2 I think @Bolsover Brewer was implying that 15 minutes isn't long enough to have much affect on a number of parameters, so doing no boil would still return a passable beer. Rather than, you're not making beer, so why bother

I beg to differ. It was sneering.

 

[Sadfield]

No wild claims at all. It's not wild to say that DMS isn't a big deal for us and it's an outdated belief to say it is.

Speaking for all homebrewers now are we.

Again, with the unsubstantiated DMS claims, yet you and Mr Heath boil for 30 minutes instead of 1, 2, 5 or 10? Perhaps you've decided there is a correlation between boil time and quality, for all the reasons @Bolsover Brewer listed.

 

[Brew_DD2]

Speaking for all homebrewers now are we.

Again, with the unsubstantiated DMS claims, yet you boil for 30 minutes instead of 1, 2, 5 or 10? Perhaps you've decided there is a correlation between boil time and quality, for all the reasons @Bolsover Brewer listed.

I said it before, if you think you're having DMS issues with your beer, then feel free to boil more in an effort to remedy it. I've just not seen any evidence to suggest that it's a big issue. Oxidation on the other hand...

I'm open-minded enough that I'm not going to make any claims on what's the best. 30 minutes works for my brew day. It allows me time to clean things up and doesn't require a huge increase in bittering hops over a 60 minute boil. If I worked out a way to do things in 15, or 10, and it didn't change the quality or character of the finished beer, then you can bet I would do that. Pragmatism vs dogmatism.

 

[Crappyfish]

Why not go full Withnail & I and just rub yourself in deep heat?

Imagine the smell

 

[White Rose Al]

The latest David Heath video on reducing boil times to 30 minutes is a very interesting watch.

Brew Days on an AIO and sparge tank are a nightmare under the electricity price hike

 

[Cheyne_brewer]

The latest David Heath video on reducing boil times to 30 minutes is a very interesting watch.

Brew Days on an AIO and sparge tank are a nightmare under the electricity price hike

Hence my 15 minute boil experiment - having done a mash hop there was no real need for a boil. It’s main function was to create a hot break which seemed as good as with a 60min boil.