Choosing - Brewzilla 35l vs Brauheld Pro 45l vs Brauheld Smart 45l

[jambop]

I'm looking for suggestions to help choose between (probably) these systems:
Brewzilla 35l gen4 (£410)
Brauheld Pro 45l (Klarstein £490)
Brauheld Smart 45l (Klarstein £375)

Unless there's any better suggestions, in the same price range.

The brewzilla includes a 13 loop Chiller coil.
Klarstein Chiller 12 cooling coil, listed as "Chiller 9" on their site, (21.5 cm diameter spiral with 18 cooling loops) adds an extra £70.

I'm mostly doing 23l batches, so the Brauheld extra 10l would only help with the occasional big beers. But can manage these, with care, in (friends) Brewzilla 35l (gen3), and guess gen 4 similar.
Did look at Bulldog Master Brewer 30l £585 inc immersion Chiller. Seems very like the Brauheld Pro 35l, but with twin wall construction. I think it's 30l size is too small for me. Shame as I like the twin wall, and getting a chiller complete with push-fit hose fittings.

Brewzilla: The domed bottom of the new gen brewzilla looks a great idea, to allow complete emptying via pump, without any tipping. And brewzilla spares seem widely available.

Brauheld: Don't see spares listed anywhere, and Klarstein seems to list very few spares for any products. Their Facebook page has many complaining of lack of parts / service.
Both Brauleld's: Have anti-burn circulation - optional pump recirculation via 2nd valve near bottom. With brewzilla gen3, this feature might have reduced temperature cycling a bit, but not sure if it's a big plus point. Bazooka screen filter (optional, on pump inlet?) is reported to require a raised inlet level, giving more incomplete emptying.

Brauheld Pro 45l: has pump housed in external box, with inlet coming from hose, with a push connector that goes on drain tap. So you can pump sparge water, by connecting this hose to the sparge vessel (or dipping extended hose in).
Review of (the similar Bulldog Master Brewer), said that the external pump was far superior to (previous Bulldog) internal one.

Brauheld Smart 45l: Has external sight tube. Not sure I'd ever use its smart connectivity (phone app).

I am in a similar sort of quandary. I currently use a GF S40 and have really had to learn how to get the best from it. I am now quite confident using it. However now I am, like you, looking for another system as I want to make bigger batches of beer. I have been doing a bit of product review and specification research and to be fair it appears to me that it does not matter much which bit of kit you buy they all suffer the same problem and this is that the mashing temperature is very difficult to control. Now I am not dismissing a new system at the moment but it seems to me reading user reviews that if I do buy another system I am just getting into another learning how to control it situation. I am certain there will be many upsides to a new system but the downsides look to be exactly the same, erratic mash temperatures. It is not difficult to understand why this happens the temperature probe in the kettle gets wort passed over it that is not representitve of what is actually happening up above in the mashing grain bed. I was watching a marketing video for the Brewzilla gen 4 65L and was really taken by it. I then looked for reviews of the kit by users and the reality is not anything like the marketing blurb. If I was being fair I would say that things like bluetooth and wifi connections are just marketing frills because the machine does not do what they say is will and that is maintain the temperature profile that you have programmed with any fidelity. If you think about it consistent mashing is a very important fundimental of brewing and it is the one thing that all the AIO systems fail badly at achieving.
With that in mind if I were you I would try to buy a system that primaraly is built well and resign myself to learning how to perfect your mashings because the marketing of even the best AIO is a promise that is not really achievable in the real world in my opinion.

 

[MashBag]

I think you are right about internetabilities, they over promise, and/or charge you for the privilege.

My BM keeps mash temps just fine, but it is not very talkative

 

[foxy]

I am in a similar sort of quandary. I currently use a GF S40 and have really had to learn how to get the best from it. I am now quite confident using it. However now I am, like you, looking for another system as I want to make bigger batches of beer. I have been doing a bit of product review and specification research and to be fair it appears to me that it does not matter much which bit of kit you buy they all suffer the same problem and this is that the mashing temperature is very difficult to control. Now I am not dismissing a new system at the moment but it seems to me reading user reviews that if I do buy another system I am just getting into another learning how to control it situation. I am certain there will be many upsides to a new system but the downsides look to be exactly the same, erratic mash temperatures. It is not difficult to understand why this happens the temperature probe in the kettle gets wort passed over it that is not representitve of what is actually happening up above in the mashing grain bed. I was watching a marketing video for the Brewzilla gen 4 65L and was really taken by it. I then looked for reviews of the kit by users and the reality is not anything like the marketing blurb. If I was being fair I would say that things like bluetooth and wifi connections are just marketing frills because the machine does not do what they say is will and that is maintain the temperature profile that you have programmed with any fidelity. If you think about it consistent mashing is a very important fundimental of brewing and it is the one thing that all the AIO systems fail badly at achieving.
With that in mind if I were you I would try to buy a system that primaraly is built well and resign myself to learning how to perfect your mashings because the marketing of even the best AIO is a promise that is not really achievable in the real world in my opinion.

Very well said, consumers are gullible, and the more marketing the easier to reel them in. The ones being looked at by the OP are not a set and forget SVB's they have to be worked by the operator to extract the best out of them.

Over here in Australia it is illegal not to carry spare parts for the product being sold I would have thought it would be a similar law in the UK.
Should bonded elements burn out the replacement is the kettle and the elements then transfer the pump, circuit board and screen over.
Magical Pancake who is a forum member made a video of replacing the element.
The wash of water running over the element is just another gimmick, the scorching happens not in the boil but in the mash, mashing at a lower wattage eliminates scorching. The turbulence of the boil prevents sugars from sticking to the bottom plate.
Stirring regularly during the mash maintains the temperature, doesn't matter if it is a PID or analog temperature controller. Whatever unit is purchased will take the effort on the user's part to get the best out of it.

 

[MashBag]

Stirring regularly during the mash maintains the temperature,

Stirring is for saucepans.

Imagine if you will, what would happen if after buying a brand new washing machine, I mentioned to my wife that while it was working she would need to open it up, & give the clothes a good rub because the machine didn't get them property clean.

If stirring really is a requirement the machine is not fit for purpose.

 

[foxy]

Stirring is for saucepans.

Imagine if you will, what would happen if after buying a brand new washing machine, I mentioned to my wife that while it was working she would need to open it up, & give the clothes a good rub because the machine didn't get them property clean.

If stirring really is a requirement the machine is not fit for purpose.

Stirring is a requirement, even for me who does full-volume mash. Wort has hot and cold spots, the recirculation does nothing to keep an even temperature stirring will break up those spots. Just remind me what SVB do you use?

 

[Philthebrewer]

I am lucky enough to have both a 35l Brewzilla and a 25l Braumeister and so I can regularly compare the performance. I have to agree with MashBag that the difference is like a modern washing machine compared to a scrubbing board.

It is not only the need for stirring makes the Brewzilla a very hands-on machine. In my case I also need to adjust the pump tap and manually measure the temperature using an external probe and then adjust the machine's target temperature to try to get to a stable temp. This means that in a 90 minute multi-step mashing (including temp ramp-ups) I am checking the machine every 5 minutes which means that I have to baby sit it constantly.

I compare that to the Braumeister with its reverse pumping of the mash, where I can truly set and forget the mash and come back to a completed multi-step mash 90 minutes later. Work-from-home brewing is indeed possible.

My question is why none of the cheaper systems (such as Brewzilla) have tried to copy the Braumeister's reverse pumping. Is it patented too well? Is the engineering too hard? I would love to try reversing the pump on my Brewzilla if that was possible, but I fear it is too hard.

Finally some good news, in my experience the brew comes out just as good on either machine. So the question is whether you can find the money for a more automated experience, not whether you will make a better beer.

 

[foxy]

I am lucky enough to have both a 35l Brewzilla and a 25l Braumeister and so I can regularly compare the performance. I have to agree with MashBag that the difference is like a modern washing machine compared to a scrubbing board.

It is not only the need for stirring makes the Brewzilla a very hands-on machine. In my case I also need to adjust the pump tap and manually measure the temperature using an external probe and then adjust the machine's target temperature to try to get to a stable temp. This means that in a 90 minute multi-step mashing (including temp ramp-ups) I am checking the machine every 5 minutes which means that I have to baby sit it constantly.

I compare that to the Braumeister with its reverse pumping of the mash, where I can truly set and forget the mash and come back to a completed multi-step mash 90 minutes later. Work-from-home brewing is indeed possible.

My question is why none of the cheaper systems (such as Brewzilla) have tried to copy the Braumeister's reverse pumping. Is it patented too well? Is the engineering too hard? I would love to try reversing the pump on my Brewzilla if that was possible, but I fear it is too hard.

Finally some good news, in my experience the brew comes out just as good on either machine. So the question is whether you can find the money for a more automated experience, not whether you will make a better beer.

I agree the BM is superior in the mashing it stirs itself with the pump on/off cycle but where it comes undone is the insipid boil.
The pumping through the grain bed is patented by Braumeister, that's why the other machines just have a recirculation which does nothing to keep a constant temperature within the mash. Which is probably the most important part of the mashing process.
I don't mind the hands-on approach, because I am doing full volume, stirring finishes within 20 to 30 mins, a good stir at the start, and every 10 mins after so only 3 or 4 stirs tops, adjunct dependent.

 

[jambop]

@Philthebrewer
What you are describng is almost exactly what I have to do with my GF S40 to maintain the correct mashing temperature profile . It is really not that much of a bother for me because as I have said I am a hands on type brewer BUT with all these machines what is being pushed in the marketing is that they are in some way automatic after doughing in. I really do not think this is the case the machines all suffer the same issues regarding temperature differentials through the wort and grain bed. The most recent Brewzilla has already been found out and has had an add on to help wort flow over the temperature sensor. I do agree that stirring the mash is one way of making the whole mash/wort a bit more homogeneous but for me the less you have to lift the lid with the mashing grains the more chance you have of keeping the heat in the vessel stable in the first place
I was within clicking the order now button of buying a new Brewzilla 65L but I am now reflecting and asking is it actually better to stick with the devil I know? It makes very nice beer but is very hands on, or just wait a bit and see where the Brewzilla Gen 4 goes in terms of debugging and improving ? The other system I have in my sights is a GF G40 but to be honest the system probably has the same issues at a higher price and the same volume as my S40 . One other thing is, and I do not want to come over as mister know all. I honestly think these systems are aimed at getting people with very mimited brewing experience and knowledge hooked with a promise of connecting their computer and brew system together and somehow become a master brewer overnight. It is a nice thought but it is not going to happen .

To be fair though, even with the problems we are talking about. These systems will still make wort good enough to make decent beer, it is however the more experienced brewer who is going to know the beer will not be what it would have been had the mashing temperature been better controlled . I know I have had quite a few of my early brews using the S40 where the desired mashing temp was 66 C and when I checked the actual temp with my thermometer is was 72C ! The damage was done I had a far less fermentable wort... the beer was fine and easliy drinkable but not anything like what I had planned. I believe your thermometer is your friend when mashing with these systems and with a single temp mash constant monitoring at during the first 30 mins helps you to get an understanding of your kit so you know how to make the temperature vary as little as possible from what you planned .

 

[foxy]

I think if you wanted the ultimate piece of equipment then the addition of a mechanical stirrer would be the go. Using a geared motor with high torque and low speed it would be easy and cheap to construct something for a homebrew level.
Even the BM is not infallible when a fair chunk of the grain bill is flaked barley or oats, many times I have had fountains on the BM and had to stop and stir the mash manually to relieve the problem.
So a mash tun with a paddle, they are available from Mattmill but where is the fun in that plus they are pricey, AliExpress a geared motor with torque capable of doing the job are cheap, less than AUD 50.

https://braumarkt.com/MattMill-Motorized-Mash-Mixer-for-Brew-Kettle-36-litres

 

[LeeH]

Looks like a windscreen wiper motor. It will be easy to knock up a Heath Robinson version of that using some oiled ply wood and plastic hinges.

 

[foxy]

Looks like a windscreen wiper motor. It will be easy to knock up a Heath Robinson version of that using some oiled ply wood and plastic hinges.

What I was looking at.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/323...p4p_id=202312022144121316423823739266792648_4
But prefer this one with plenty of grunt and a 10mm dia shaft.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...007.40000.327270.0&scm_id=1007.40000.327270.0
The only reason I am doing this is I like to play, I am quite happy using my paddle for 30 minutes.

 

[jambop]

That looks like it could help quite a bit. Would be interesting to have a report on your findings if you get on and test it out!

edit
There is one thing that gives me a bit of concern. Would the use of a mixer encourage small particals of the mashing grains to find their way through the malt pipe into the area below and cause blockage of the false bottomand/ or pump? I have heard of users having problems with Brewzilla clogging with grains and hops.

 

[MashBag]

I think if you wanted the ultimate piece of equipment then the addition of a mechanical stirrer would be the go.

Yup been done. Camurri brewer.

https://www.hallsintl.com/camurri-brauer-23-litre-beer-maker

 

[MashBag]

I have never suffered from the boil lacking on the BM. I do think it was a getting used to it type thing, like we have discussed with other things. I have a runaway lid on mine, so I am not there for that either, I just appear at hops addition times.

 

[foxy]

That looks like it could help quite a bit. Would be interesting to have a report on your findings if you get on and test it out!

edit
There is one thing that gives me a bit of concern. Would the use of a mixer encourage small particals of the mashing grains to find their way through the malt pipe into the area below and cause blockage of the false bottomand/ or pump? I have heard of users having problems with Brewzilla clogging with grains and hops.

I want to fit a mash stirrer just for the hell of it, I have 4 different SVB's so I wouldn't do it on all maybe the Guten 40 litre would be the best candidate. I could fit a boss at the centre of the bottom of the malt pipe easily enough and using 'j' bolts could secure the drive in the centre of the kettle the rakes would be the main problem.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

I want to fit a mash stirrer just for the hell of it, I have 4 different SVB's so I wouldn't do it on all maybe the Guten 40 litre would be the best candidate. I could fit a boss at the centre of the bottom of the malt pipe easily enough and using 'j' bolts could secure the drive in the centre of the kettle the rakes would be the main problem.

You have got me tempted for my Guten 70 now. Just when I thought the mods were over. The commercial brewery I worked in didn't use the rakes much during the mash. Just recirculated. But experience of one brewery not a good sample.
The rakes on the stirrer might need to be smaller or perhaps at different heights. I'm watching to see if this makes any real improvement. I'm getting 90 % mash efficiency and 84 % brewhouse as it is.

 

[foxy]

Really is a poor showing if a microbrewery has rakes and doesn't use them! There are a few builds on YouTube but the RPM just isn't right, and very amateurish.

 

[MashBag]

This might be helpful.

This is the shape of the camurri. I have an instruction manual, but it's written in Swedish.

@foxy what's the problem with rpm. Surely slow is good?

Could you use this design without a bottom boss?

 

[MashBag]

Posinelli supply one. But imo very pricey.

Agitator for mashing 35

Beekeepers and cheesemakers do similar.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125645899954?var=0

 

[foxy]

This might be helpful.

This is the shape of the camurri. I have an instruction manual, but it's written in Swedish.

@foxy what's the problem with rpm. Surely slow is good?

Could you use this design without a bottle boss?

Slow is good, but not some of the speeds that I have seen including the ice cream maker I am thinking along the lines of 40 RPM