Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise")

[peebee]

This long-time available document is being removed; it is already gone from my "signature".

This is because changes to security on Google (where the document is stored) has "broken" the link for many.

I'll look for alternative arrangements.

 

[Eskimo John]

Let us know, I would be interested to read it.

 

[peebee]

Thanks. You might still be able to get it if you follow the link >here<. But if you automatically log onto Google it wont work. Don't click the "request access" button, 'cos that doesn't work either. Google might fix it, but don't hold your breath.

[EDIT: I might fix it soon, but don't hold your breath for that either!]

 

[Eskimo John]

It didn't work.

 

[marshbrewer]

Works for me on Android phone.

 

[peebee]

I just happened to log on to my Gmail account today: So that's where the "request access" emails were going! I also got a link on how to remove the wretched Google security change that messed it all up.

It "should" work now? I'll put the link back when sure of it.

[EDIT: I'll put it here before sticking it back in the signature: Treatise ]

 

[RoomWithABrew]

It's well worth a read and then download it. Could it be put as a thread with your title and then closed so it was just a viewable resource?

 

[peebee]

The link is to a PDF file. If you have Google Docs installed it will open in the Web browser, else it will download and open in whatever PDF reader you have installed. Otherwise, you get the option to download it as a PDF file and you'll have to find a reader that will open it.

Or ... the link still doesn't work, and I'll have to rethink it!

 

[stripeyjoe]

I think you can just attach a pdf to a thread comment…like this. Maybe just post it in the how to guides forum?

 

[EthanTheBear]

Thanks @peebee, I've been trying to access the treatise for a while now and I've finally gotten access. The treatise is very informative and so now I'm inspired to get all the different parts to go about serving "reduced oxygen" cask ale.

So far I have bought the 20-300mbar LPG regulator (Novacomet BP1813) but as I'm sure you are aware it has come with the two brass connections attached. I'm struggling to remove the brass connections but I noticed you uploaded the following picture previously where you managed to do it, how did you go about removing the brass connections?

 

[peebee]

I think you can just attach a pdf to a thread comment…like this. Maybe just post it in the how to guides forum?

Thanks. I think it was a historical thing; you couldn't post such large attachments (I was trying to make a special arrangement with the Admins on this site a while ago). Good to see it's changed now.

... how did you go about removing the brass connections?

They are tough! Strong thread-lock substance they use. I had the impression I'd strip the threads so you do it with the understanding you might have no regulator at the end of it (I've separated five with no disasters!). I'm sure it was a 7mm Allen key to remove the POL adapter. You then need BSP adapters to suit your setup.

Well done finding the 20-300mbar variants. Rare as "hens' teeth"! Although for 99% of uses the common 50-150mbar variant is more than adequate (and you don't have to puzzle how to get the useless adapters off).

I don't think of the arrangements as 'serving "reduced oxygen" cask ale'. More a way of extending the life of cask ale in home-brew situations that just happens to be a vast improvement on "cask breathers" (and the "treatise" goes on to explain why).

 

[AnimatedGIF]

Can I please just say, thank you for the treatise. I'm now enjoying beer served through a beer engine at home and it's excellent. Just the right level of carbonation using the LPG regulator. I know you didn't create it to get thanks, but thanks anyway

 

[peebee]

Aww, shucks

(Your bribe is in the post).

 

[DocAnna]

@peebee I am looking at setting up a beer pump and using a corny keg with an LPG breather for CO2 supply along the line of your 'treatise'. I am though thinking of a maintenance free version of the venting option, and would appreciate your thoughts on this.
Essentially what it seems is needed is a very low pressure spunding valve that also won't depressurise too quickly. So my plan is to use a non return valve with an opening pressure of likely 0.7 psi on a JG valve attached to 5/16 line, and using frictional pressure to drop the pressure together with the non return valve to be greater than the feed in pressure.

This would be using the line to create a pressure drop in much the same way dispensing lines use this for liquids. I've emailed John Guest UK to ask what the cracking/opening pressure of their 3/8 non return valve is and what the manufacturing tolerance is. Providing it is lower than 1.5psi this should work. A reducer stem will add further junctional pressure loss. Alternatively It would also be possible to instead use a shut off valve on 3/8 line with the check valve to create a tunable low pressure spunding valve. The second option appeals most as the opening pressure on the check valve might change with time.

 

[Druncan]

When I sold cask beer in our restaurant, I found this to be the absolute best way of maintaining real ale quality. RLBS Cask Aspirator / Breather Valve

Easy connection to my keg CO2 secondary gas board.Strangely, my keg beers outsold the cask to a point where it wasn't worth the hassle of even stocking Fyne Ales Avalanche.

That also gave my liver a rest, when not feeling obliged to sup old cask beer or feed it to the compost worms.

 

[peebee]

@DocAnna: I need some more time to cover all the points you raise. I'm not a fan of "spunding valves" as they aren't sensitive enough to handle these low pressures very well. If just a bit sticky they stay open and vent all your pressure. Look at the "Breather" @Druncan posted (blimey, those things are expensive) and you get an idea of the size of diaphragm needed to regulate such poky pressure (in a breather that means within a gnat's f*** of no pressure). Not that I approve of "breathers" except in commercial environments, definitely not home-brew (sorry @Druncan, but you've had plenty of chance to know my feelings about them in earlier posts of this thread ... in fact, I could be slightly offended given it could tell me you haven't read my "treatise" I keep blabbering on about - shame on you!).

But I've never been put out by the fairly rare times I've resorted to manually "venting" (using bubble counters). I hang a big label on the "bubble counter" to remind me it's "bubbling". For convenience, the counters are permanently installed on the gas lines 'tween keg and LPG regulator.

I find "cracking pressures" are a bit unreliable too. Manufacturers seem to be offended when you want to know "cracking pressure" ("'Cracking pressure'? What 'cracking pressure'?"). You're losing me a bit with the rest. Doesn't take much to lose me ... hang on, you're a Doc? If I spend the next hour or two explaining ... na, better not!

Despite my opening, I think I've covered the points raised? Which means I've spent too much time on the forum again, and shortly... (What? ... I'm talking to someone; I can't come now ... oh, alright ... coming.) ...

 

[Druncan]

@peebee yup,,,,,, I remember "Why you buying that? more bl88dy brewing cr*p" but it's for the business and it triples the life of a cask. Otherwise I'll have to keep drinking it!! "OK, THEN! but nothing more OK?" - bloody worked as well

Turns page 3,,,,,,

 

[RoomWithABrew]

@DocAnna
I think the specification of the non return ball lock valves needs at least 1.5 psi of pressure to work. They are variable in performance, low pressure valves and regulators are tricky to find and confirm they work consistently. Even more so cheaper spunding valves.
The idea is good other than the aforementioned lack of exposure to air and cask ale development, practically without a cask breather other options don't really work. Good luck.
An auto spunding system might improve accuracy / tolerance but not the cask ale effect.

 

[DocAnna]

@DocAnna
I think the specification of the non return ball lock valves needs at least 1.5 psi of pressure to work. They are variable in performance, low pressure valves and regulators are tricky to find and confirm they work consistently. Even more so cheaper spunding valves.
The idea is good other than the aforementioned lack of exposure to air and cask ale development, practically without a cask breather other options don't really work. Good luck.
An auto spunding system might improve accuracy / tolerance but not the cask ale effect.

Thanks - I was realising I’d need a breather regulator - sorry not to have made that clear. My idea for a low pressure spunding valve was a vent alternative to fiddling with needle valves or bubblers.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Thanks - I was realising I’d need a breather regulator - sorry not to have made that clear. My idea for a low pressure spunding valve was a vent alternative to fiddling with needle valves or bubblers.

Right, not sure that if you find a low pressure spunding valve it will perform as well as you want it to.