Cask ale carbonation time

[ivanb]

Hello folks, inspired by my trips to UK I want to switch to cask ale brewing. I've never brewed cask so need some advice. It doesn't have to be 100 percent pure cask ale since I will not be able to drink 5 gallons in few days :-) so some CO2 will need to be introduced.

Brewing and fermenting would be more or less the same as I did before - i will just pull out some cask ale beer style's recipes online.

After fermentation we come to all the complexity that brings cask ales :-) My idea is to transfer beer to 20 liters corny keg, add about 12-15 grams of dextrose (I got that amount from other thread on this forum) and get that carbonization going. Apology if that was discussed before, but after big research i could not find info about:

1. How long does it take to carbonate to desired cask ale low carbonation style (if we put those 12-15 grams or 0.6 - 0.9 grams of dextrose / liter in 5 gallon or 19 liter corny)?
2. How are we suppose to check if it is finished with carbonating or not? Is it only way to check to connect to beer engine and pour it and taste it or?
3. if we are satisfied with level of carbonation - then we should release pressure from keg and introduce constant low level CO2 (for example 5 PSI) from CO2 tank in order to protect beer from going bad and to prevent from forming vacuum when beer will be used through beer engine?

Thank in advance for all the answers and advices.

 

[MmmBeer]

1. One to two weeks.
2. If you have your CO2 cylinder connected to the keg, with the cylider valve closed, the low pressure gauge on the regulator should indicate the pressure in the keg, may be difficult to read accurately for such a low pressure. Pouring some and tasting it is never a bad thing.
3. My thought would be to set the regulator to 5 psi, then close the cylinder valve and after each glass poured, open the cylinder valve briefly to maintain a small positive pressure.

Also keep notes and adjust sugar quantities and / or gas pressure if it is not quite what you wanted.

 

[peebee]

I'll contradict @MmmBeer just a little bit. Hope he doesn't mind?

1. One or two days! If you chucked 15g of Dextrose into beer full of starving yeast; the yeast won't waste much time! Anyway, you may have a regulator attached, so what's the worry? Realistically, you might leave it until it's cleared. I fine the beer at casking time so it's clear in one or two days anyway. That's for "running" beers (if you're allowed to use the arcane term), approx. <5%ABV? Stronger more complex beers you might choose to leave one or two weeks ... or longer?

2. As @MmmBeer said, you may have a gauge attached, but they're difficult to read (or trust) at such low pressure. Trust the regulator (if you have a suitable one). If you are "maturing" for a few weeks without a regulator attached, there is the risk that the yeast can find more sugar to feed on (British yeasts tend to leave some unfermented dextrin) so watch out for over carbonation (not that common).

3. Set the cylinder regulator to maximum! Fit an "LPG Regulator" between cylinder regulator and keg. I use the adjustable "Cleese" regulators (no useless POL adapters). 5PSI is too much. The Cleese 50-150mbar regulators put out 2PSI on MAX (that's about 150mbar) ... which I also find too much so turn them down to 80-100mbar (adjust to taste!).


Loads more in that document linked in my "signature" below.

 

[ivanb]

Thank you so much guys for answers, great info for cask beer newbie :-)

@peebee - it's awesome that it can be carbonated in only 1-2 days, i can start to drink it lot sooner hehe. But how come that it carbonates so fast? Before I was bottling my homebrew and it took lot longer then 1-2 days to carbonate in bottles that were in room temperature. And isn't it essentially similar / same thing - fermented beer transfered to bottle or to keg and then priming sugar added? Or you have some secret magic how you carbonate it in such a short period? :-)

@MmmBeer - So I should open the cylinder valve shortly after pouring beer to maintain a small positive pressure. But not sure I understand why to close cylinder valve after that, what is the danger of leaving the regulator to that small pressure? I suppose it can not overcarbonate beer since it is very small pressure? Or I am missing something? :-)

 

[peebee]

... it's awesome that it can be carbonated in only 1-2 days, i can start to drink it lot sooner hehe. But how come that it carbonates so fast? Before I was bottling my homebrew and it took lot longer then 1-2 days to carbonate in bottles that were in room temperature. ...

"Cask" beer is not the same as bottled! And "Keg" beer doesn't remotely compare with "cask". When fermentation is finished, the beer contains 0.8-0.9 volumes of CO2 (saturation at atmospheric pressure). You don't waste any time getting it in a cask (depending on beer ... yesterday I was drinking a commercial English beer that's kept for a year in storage casks before packaging! ), so, lots of active yeast in the beer, and you only want to raise the carbonation by half a PSI. That commercial beer I mentioned needs to produce over ten times that volume of CO2 (in a bottle) and had twelve months for most of the yeast to collapse on the bottom. The bottles would require a little longer!

So, British "running" beer is often fined, and British beer yeasts often drop-out quickly anyway. Generally, they tend not to be so sugar-hungry aggressive feeders and finish quickly too. Keg beers can use "fluffier" yeast because they get filtered out (force carbonation so not needed any longer) and will often attenuate sugars (dextrin included) more completely. The difference has triggered arguments between drinkers for over 50 years. Which British beer is gradually losing and risks dying out.

But you want to emulate British beer! So, I must pile on the encouragement!



While about it, I'll do my best to answer the query aimed at @MmmBeer: You close the cylinder valve because you can't trust "ordinary" regulators to hold such low pressures (whatever some Chinese sellers claim through their Aussie shopfront). The pressures might creep up ... more worryingly they might creep down to nothing. And Corny kegs are notorious for breaking seal when not pressured. I've had it happen to me (and the beer goes off a few days later!), so even though I now use reliable LPG regulators (they must be reliable; they're primarily for handling explosive gases!), the cylinder is still turned off ... automatically, by timer, because I'm paranoid!

BTW: The "commercial English bottled beer I spoke of was Sam Smith's "Yorkshire Stingo". Well worth trying to get your hands on, but it isn't cheap!

And ... "Running beer" is an arcane phrase, from a time when such beer might be delivered within a month of making it, not within a week like now!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

it's awesome that it can be carbonated in only 1-2 days, i can start to drink it lot sooner hehe.

Sorry, that is bad advice from someone who has clearly never run a commercial cellar. There are three main things to consider.

1) Carbonation - which varies a lot from yeast to yeast. Yes, many are done within a day or two, but some are notoriously slow - Tim Taylors can take over a week.

2) Dropping - from a commercial POV it's really useful to know the breweries whose yeast drops overnight, as they allow you to have beer on quickly when your cellar has sold out. But generally we'd allow 2 days to get a clear pint, traditional cask yeasts are generally pretty good in that regard but it's not always so good with eg some Chico varieties.

3) But perhaps the most important consideration here is the "lagering" effect of the conditioning period, to allow the beer to clean up and knit together. I know breweries that care about quality, that refuse to let beer out of the door until it's had 2 weeks to condition at the brewery after fermentation. I also know a brewery that is less careful of their reputation, who sent a firkin of acetaldehyde to a high-profile beer festival. So it's up to you.

 

[peebee]

Sorry, that is bad advice from someone who has clearly never run a commercial cellar. There are three main things to consider.

'Cos he's (that'll be me!) answering a question from a homebrewer, not a commercial Pub!

"Chico varieties"? A well-known British traditional yeast? C'mon!

Add: I'm only suggesting an emulation, so the homebrew gets served a trifle young, but it's attached to an LPG regulator, there's more than enough carbonation (that it won't be getting commercially). Better to start drinking an "ordinary" ("running"-ish) British beer a tiny bit too young than wait and have to finish it too old!

Now crawl back in your box and don't come out again until you've something useful to say (which I know you are capable of saying at times). Geesh ... here's a guy (@ivanb) who needs encouragement ... why do you want to slap him down?

 

[Sadfield]

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about getting the carbonation spot on first time. Go higher and use the PRV on the keg to vent CO2, let it settle, and repeat until you hit the right level.

The tricky thing to replicate about cask beer is the mouthfeel. Concentrate more on having a high mineral content and good foam. Aim for a thick mash. Do not crash cool.

I'd consider open fermentation, or perhaps Double Dropping, too. It is to British brewing tradition, as decoction mashing is to German brewing tradition.

 

[matt76]

@peebee is this the regulator you're talking about or is it a completely different one from their range?

https://clesse.co.uk/product/bp1813-adjustable-regulator-50-150-mbar-4kg-h/

Presumably you need to find some barbed adapters with the right thread to screw into each end of the regulator, hopefully compatible with 3/8" beer line ?

 

[peebee]

It is. You can also get them from BES and https://www.gasproducts.co.uk/clesse-bp1813-adjustable-propane-regulator-4kg-50-150mbar.html without those flippin' POL adapters (the adapter can be removed, but they're fixed pretty tight!). I'm still spelling Clesse with double "e" ... sorry!

And yes, you do need adapters (1/4" and 3/8" BSP), either barbs or 3/8" beer-line push-ins ... or whatever you use (I use 6 or 8mm polyurethane pneumatic pipe, or even stainless-steel pipe fittings for more "permanent" arrangements).

And don't forget; you're connecting them to your cylinder's regulator 1-4BAR output. Not your 57BAR cylinder output (the lpg regulator can handle up to 10BAR).

 

[ivanb]

Thank you @peebee - I am looking for something like that in my neck of woods - not sure if something like this could work and is it possible to connect - seems it has only connection to CO2 cylinder directly: https://brewshop.no/produkt/fat-co2...astream-med-john-guest-hurtigkobling-oxyturbo

Or this one? https://www.vestbrygg.no/co2-utstyr/103789/duotight-blowtie-spunding-valve

Do you have any photos to share of your setup with both cylinder's regulator and LPG regulator?

 

[peebee]

The first one looks a very nice creation but misses the point! You will not find a regulator that will step-down 57BAR (or there-abouts) CO2 cylinder pressure to 150mbar cask pressure (without paying a huge sum). Hence secondary regulators (57BAR ->1-4BAR ->150mbar). I would have thought someone over there sells Clesse (they're Spanish) Regulators (Caravan supplies, gamebird breeding supplies, but not homebrew supplies!). The second one is not any use at-all for this; sorry. My setups are no help ('cos I tend to do things "different"):

The one on the seat is "free-style", but I use metal pnematic connectors and has the regulator connected directly to a pin-lock disconnect. The ones in the foregound have bubble counters (aquarium) attached for "venting" over pressure.

Search this forum for "Clesse" (or my common misspelling "Cleese"), I'm sure there will be something.

 

[ivanb]

Maybe you are big fan of John Cleese? hehe, just joking, thanks so much for all this info, awesome stuff. Will look at Clesse, thanks again :-)