Carlsberg Marstons

[Galena]

Interesting.

I don't know about carbonation, but my mate at the Brewery (we were also discussing Bass said "Pedi is **** these days but more stable in pubs... ie less skill required by publican ro keep it. Bass is brewed by Marston's but Coors Allowed the Bass yeast strain to die so it will never be the same. "

 

[peebee]

Years ago the pubs around me served either Marstons or Bass, a few Everards and the odd Ruddles pub - The Pedi was good and the Bass 'matured in Russian Oak casks to give it its unique flavour' they said was also good as I recall All gone, Pedi recipe has changed. Bass abandoned the old brewing system and its now brewed by Marstons. Ruddles moved else were and at the moment Everards contract most of their beers out. Thank goodness for the diversity thats now available . - although in large areas around Burton Marstons own the majority of the pubs so choice is still stifled

Yeap, Pedigree was the "go-to", Bass was second best, Ruddles was worth the extra effort of travelling (mainly 'cos it was stronger and at 17, oops, scratch that, 18 the idea was to get pi$$ed quick). Everards? I think you lived in a different area of East Midlands to me.

 

[Graz]

Pretty much all been said, Marstons had ruined most of what they had long before Carlsberg came along.

Now I remember not long after moving to Tewkesbury having a night out with colleagues and having my first taste of Hobgoblin. What a beer it was back then, strong, dark, malty. Few pints of it and you certainly knew about it. Current version is a mere shadow of it. Interesting that they've bought out "King Goblin" recently which is a bit closer to the original in terms of ABV (6.6%). According to Wikipedia Hobgoblin was once 6.5% on cask.

 

[Galena]

Everards? I think you lived in a different area of East Midlands to me.

Everards were Leicester based (still are I guess) and when I first started drinking as a teen they had no presence that I recall in Derby and certainly not in the Peak District until probably the late 70's and it's still rare to see them. Tiger Bitter, couldn't stand the stuff and I don't think I have tried their more recent ale's.

 

[terrym]

Years ago the pubs around me served either Marstons or Bass, a few Everards and the odd Ruddles pub - The Pedi was good and the Bass 'matured in Russian Oak casks to give it its unique flavour' they said was also good as I recall All gone, Pedi recipe has changed. Bass abandoned the old brewing system and its now brewed by Marstons. Ruddles moved else were and at the moment Everards contract most of their beers out. Thank goodness for the diversity thats now available . - although in large areas around Burton Marstons own the majority of the pubs so choice is still stifled

When I were a lad in Burton, you could get a choice of Bass-Worthington, Ind Coope, and Marstons pubs, and Trumans and perhaps Everards, who both had breweries in the town, had two or three between them as well. So much for choice.
I also found a reference somewhere recently saying that in the 1960s the town had over 120 licensed premises of which most would have been pubs, which is quite remarkable for a town which only had about 50,000 inhabitants

 

[Linalmeemow]

Everards were Leicester based (still are I guess) and when I first started drinking as a teen they had no presence that I recall in Derby and certainly not in the Peak District until probably the late 70's and it's still rare to see them. Tiger Bitter, couldn't stand the stuff and I don't think I have tried their more recent ale's.

Everards are in the process of moving to a brand new brewery / shopping park across the road from their old place. I pass it every day on the way to work.

 

[Linalmeemow]

Yeap, Pedigree was the "go-to", Bass was second best, Ruddles was worth the extra effort of travelling (mainly 'cos it was stronger and at 17, oops, scratch that, 18 the idea was to get pi$$ed quick). Everards? I think you lived in a different area of East Midlands to me.

You can still get original Ruddles County (after a fashion) - it's brewed to the original recipe as Grainstore Ten Fifty, and it's lovely - Ten Fifty | The Grainstore Brewery

 

[Paul Roberts]

Whatever happened to fiddler's elbow that got me into real ale as a kid

 

[AdeDunn]

@AdeDunn pointed me in the direction of a version he did a couple of years back which came out pretty close. I can’t be bothered to go and find his exact post, but this is what I entered into BF from it:
View attachment 33854View attachment 33855
He didn’t have Magnum as his bittering hop (i only did that because I have some “in stock”), he had a combo of Pilgrim and Target IIRC. He said he used Liberty Bell as his yeast.

Pilgrim & Summit, no Target.

 

[An Ankoù]

The final nail in the coffin for RIngwood, I suspect.
Here's the list from: Marston's Beers and Breweries

• Marston’s

• Banks’s

• Jennings

• Ringwood

• Wychwood

• Brakspear

• Mansfield

• Shipyard

• Revisionist

• Wainwright

• Lancaster Bomber

• Eagle

• Bombardier

• Young’s

• McEWAN’S

• Courage

• DE14

 

[An Ankoù]

Whatever happened to fiddler's elbow that got me into real ale as a kid

I used to love Fiddler's Elbow. I'll have to see if I can find a recipe for it. I could never get on with Hobgoblin, and still can't. Tastes like something made with Bisto. Not fond of Goliath, either, but the others were great- mostly.
"Fiercely Independent" was their logo. Yeah, what!

 

[marshbrewer]

They had better not fart about with Bank's Mild, or I'll proper kick off!

 

[terrym]

To stay alive any business has to adapt. And that's what happens in the brewing industry, just like any other. Brewers come and go. In my life time there are dozens that have gone and changed and been take over, and have taken others over. And the ones that have gone completely have, to some extent in the UK replaced by the small 'craft' brewers who themselves come and go, perhaps getting swallowed up in the process.
So Marstons is a brewery business. Just like the international brewers Coors and Asahi, and the bloke down the road with a 2 barrel set up. But they have to make business decisions. For better or worse Marstons plc has £280M of debt which, with this JV, they have now basically cleared as I understand it. So for them it makes good business sense to enter an arrangement with Carlsberg, although clearing the debt has cost them some control by handing some of it to Carslberg in the JV power split
And as far as the old names like Ringwood and Jennings and Mansfield they were taken over because it made business sense to their boards at the time. If it hadn't been Marstons it is likely it would have been another brewery, or they may have just closed down. Even Marstons (Burton) were themselves taken over by Wolverhampton and Dudley (Banks) a few decades back and the stock market quotation was initially Wolves until they made the business decision to call it Marstons because that had more of a national identity.
So all this is just run of the mill stuff in brewing, its been going on for decades, so get used to it. If you dont like their beer, don't drink it!

 

[An Ankoù]

So in brief: It's called "selling out".

If Peter Austin were alive today, he'd be turning in his grave.
(as Terry Wogan would have it.)

 

[terrym]

So in brief: It's called "selling out".

Possibly.
But whatever it is it's a business decison, made for what the board believe is in the best interests of the company, to best manage the aspirations of its shareholders and other stakeholders.
However you and I and others as consumers upon which the business relies can respond to the outcome accordingly.

 

[An Ankoù]

I think little breweries like Wychwood, like Ringwood and others want to grow too quickly too soon or they diversify into loss-making ventures or those who inherit a going concern really haven't the heart or even a clue about it, like Eldridge Pope (was this why Fullers sold out, too?) While I agree about business decisions, a local brewery is dear to its local community and it's a great shame when it gets too big for its boots, wants to expand too rapidly, attracts bean-counters to its board, gets more involved in branding than brewing, more concerned with volume than quality and ultimately forgets its roots. Breweries like Hopback and (just across the yard) Downton Brewing Co have managed to stay independent in spite of flirtations with supermarkets, even Hall and Woodhouse have managed to keep their act together. I wonder how strong and "fiercely independent" Shepherd Neame is!

 

[terrym]

I'm afraid sentiment about the products of a brewery mostly lie with the customer, as evidenced by many of the comments in this thread. If they exist within the business management team and strongly influence the way the business operates then there are likely to be hard times ahead. I'm sure old family run independent breweries like Batemans in Lincolnshire who have been around for years only continue because the owners have the acumen to put the business first. Even Brewdog is a business although the clever hype surrounding it may cause you to think otherwise. But the likes of lesser known breweries like Hopback (1987) are still relatively young but sooner or later they may succumb. Think Dark Star (started 1994) now owned by Asahi and Burton Bridge, started by a couple of ex Ind Coope employees in 1981 and now up for sale because the owners have been doing it for 40 years and more than likely want to move on to retirement. I know I would.

 

[Galena]

The board make decisions to please the shareholders, the shareholders only care about share price and dividends, it was this "profit before quality" that nearly finished off decent beer in the 70's, if it wasn't for Camra we would perhaps all be drinking Coors Light now. Yes it is has been going on for decades and we have mainly got used to it but it doesn't mean we have to like it when it ruins a good product. Take Cadbury's as another example.

 

[terrym]

Yes it is has been going on for decades and we have mainly got used to it but it doesn't mean we have to like it when it ruins a good product. Take Cadbury's as another example.

Absolutely you don't have to like it. However, you are not running the business, trying to keep it profitable, working in a difficult business environment, especially at the present. And that may explain why brewing is such an ever changing scene. But as a consumer you can choose to go elsewhere, albeit grudgingly, and that course of action will be considered if changes are proposed. So questions like what happens to our consumer base if we make our beer weaker, or ship it out to another brewery to brew, or change the ingredients, or even change the packaging will be considered, for the last thing a brewer want to do is to drive away their customers or they will cease to exist.

 

[Henders]

Reading the last part of this thread reminds me of the 'about us' page on the website of Crossmyloof. They explicitly state, I paraphrase, "we don't want to grow any larger because we want to focus on enjoying what we create and talking to our customers." Or something.

I think the only way to avoid the trappings of capitalism are to build and scale the/a company without taking on debt. As soon as there's debt or equity given out then you've got people to keep happy who aren't there to make beer.

I just acquired a small part of (a very small part) of West Berks Brewery as they went the crowd funding route to gaining cash. Almost every raise on such platforms discuss 'exits' which is to say, how the company thinks you may eventually get your 'big payout' of a suitably large increase on your initial investment. Annoyingly I can't find such a statement for WBB now :p. But a tech company I have invested in recently reminded me in their newsletter of "being acquired by a large bank" or similar.

Blehh. Money!