Brasserie de la Senne yeast?

[Sadfield]

I've always been a fan of De La Senne beers, their branding, an ethos. I had the good fortune to go to a Meet the Brew in Manchester, and really enjoyed what Yvan had to say. And lately I've been thinking more about how they ferment and their yeast.

“It’s a yeast we’ve chosen carefully for the subtle, mellow esters it gives. We enhance them using very flat fermenters we designed ourselves.”

https://allaboutbeer.com/article/taras-boulba/
"The origin of their house strain is veiled in great secrecy—all they’ll reveal is that it stems from a prominent Belgian brewery."

https://www.goodbeerhunting.com/blog/2016/1/26/brasserie-de-la-senne-a-renaissance-grows-in-brussels
Does anyone have any further insight or wild speculation?

I don't think it's that, and I'm not trying to clone anything, but I'm going to have a play with K-97 in my open FV using this philosophy. Enhancing the esters of a subtle yeast, rather than control those of an expressive one.

I do wonder if there's a clue in the British connection between their hoppy brewing and Duvel.

 

[An Ankoù]

You're not to first person to rave about Taras Boulba, there was quite a long thread about it some months ago on another forum including, if I remember right, possible ways of cloning it. The yeast was the problem. candisyrup.com have had a go at it, in fact I think it's their most recent trial, and they say they had difficulty with the yeast before plumping for Wyeast Biere de Garde as the nearest they could find.
Here's a link to candisyrup website; it's the first recipe in the recipes section.
https://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html
I haven't attempted it yet because I've never tasted it, but I have got my man in Lille tracking down a few bottles. Never seen it in Brittany, though.

 

[samale]

Recently I tried brewing something similar, I used WLP 540. Nice beer but not close in comparison

3.7kg pilsner
150g biscuit malt
150g carapils
200g clear Candi sugar@10mins

40g tettnang@60mins
20g tettnang+20saaz@10mins
20g tettnang+30g saaz@hopstand
50g saaz dry hop

Yeast WLP 540
20 litres @1.044

@dave_77 has also tried replicating Taras

 

[Sadfield]

I think that this is the heart of the problem for those cloning De La Senne, using the wrong fermenter geometry and approaching yeast selection and ester control from the wrong direction.

If I was going to attempt to clone one of their beers my choice would probably be Zinnebir. Taras is bloody good though.

 

[clib]

Bruxellensis is good too.

YdB has said the greatest gift he ever received was a yeast from a 'traditional' Belgian brewery. Nobody knows which afaik. The yeast is Belgian but not massively so I suspect. They ferment at 24-27C with it to develop esters, but they are fruity esters, fairly English perhaps. He says he is heavily influenced by English bitter, and names Harvey's Sussex as his favourite beer. Harvey's yeast is a phenolic strain. Pils malt, Tettnang, Saaz and the house ale yeast.

“If I have one beer style that is my favorite ever,” De Baets says, “it’s a good English bitter properly served from the cask. Taras could be seen as a Belgian version of that.” That’s certainly a cask-like strength, far lower than most Belgian offerings. Okay, what else? “We are also big fans of traditional German pilsners,” he continues. “We see [them] as a sort of achievement for a brewer to make. Hence the noble hop character of Taras.... It has a wholly unique flavor: a bright lemon stiffened by minerally hard water up front, then a slow evolution into a dry herbal finish....The beer may be hop-heavy (in addition to bittering additions, Senne dry-hops Taras Boulba)....“It’s a yeast we’ve chosen carefully for the subtle, mellow esters it gives. We enhance them using very flat fermenters we designed ourselves.” He points out that the bitterness comes from the hops, not phenolics, but I’d emphasize all the heavy lifting the yeast does in other ways. Esters up front accent the lemony hopping and create the spritz that buoys this beer. In Taras Boulba, the way those esters work with the bitterness, the way their aromas harmonize with the citrusy hops, are what tie the beer together."

 

[YeastFace]

Duvel was originally a McEwan's strain I believe?

 

[Sadfield]

@clib Yes, I'd read that and forgot it, cheers. My reading is that the yeast provides esters and any spicy phenolic are from hops. But then lemony puts me in mind of Hoegaerden.

Interesting that you mention Bruxellensis and Harvey's. My understanding of Harvey's (possibly wrong) is that the phenolic part is dekkera that doesn't present for several months ageing. This appears very similar to the way De La Senne approach their Saisons, house yeast plus brettanomyces.

 

[clib]

@clib Yes, I'd read that and forgot it, cheers. My reading is that the yeast provides esters and any spicy phenolic are from hops. But then lemony puts me in mind of Hoegaerden.

Interesting that you mention Bruxellensis and Harvey's. My understanding of Harvey's (possibly wrong) is that the phenolic part is dekkera that doesn't present for several months ageing. This appears very similar to the way De La Senne approach their Saisons, house yeast plus brettanomyces.

I've rarely had Harvey's cask but when I did I noticed a phenolic element. It was definitely there, in a fresh cask ale.

 

[Brew_DD2]

S-33 fermented cool could work well. De La Senne are incredible.

 

[YeastFace]

Do they reseed at bottling (apologies if this is covered in the article)? If not, can you build up from bottle dregs?

 

[Leon103]

Tagging @dave_77 seeing that he is a fan boy

 

[dave_77]

Been trying to get close to this beer for a while now, got the latest version conditioning at the moment.

Yeasts that I have used that I think are in the ball park.
Wyeast Wit - fermented at lower end
White labs - Bastogne
Fermentis T-58/Kolsch yeast 50/50
Fermentis S33/Kolsch yeast 50/50

I think because it's so bitter and hoppy in a noble way that it's difficult to get what is from the hops and what the yeast is contributing.

I'm actually happy with any of those yeast options it's the hop rate and type of bitterness that I'm trying to get closer.

The bitterness I find very lingering, my previous version in a side by side was a similar bitterness upfront but it died away quicker than TB.

This is the latest version, haven't tasted it yet but will probably crack the keg this weekend

https://share.brewfather.app/YUZcyPtMVCXTvy

 

[Brew_DD2]

Been trying to get close to this beer for a while now, got the latest version conditioning at the moment.

Yeasts that I have used that I think are in the ball park.
Wyeast Wit - fermented at lower end
White labs - Bastogne
Fermentis T-58/Kolsch yeast 50/50
Fermentis S33/Kolsch yeast 50/50

I think because it's so bitter and hoppy in a noble way that it's difficult to get what is from the hops and what the yeast is contributing.

I'm actually happy with any of those yeast options it's the hop rate and type of bitterness that I'm trying to get closer.

The bitterness I find very lingering, my previous version in a side by side was a similar bitterness upfront but it died away quicker than TB.

This is the latest version, haven't tasted it yet but will probably crack the keg this weekend

https://share.brewfather.app/YUZcyPtMVCXTvy

De Ranke XX Bitter has that lingering bitterness too.

 

[dave_77]

De Ranke XX Bitter has that lingering bitterness too.

Yes, another favourite.
In my previous batch I did use Brewers Gold mid boil to try and get some of that XX bitterness. I did work but not completely. The batch thats condition I used brambling cross mid boil (ran out of BG) as that had a fairly high cohumulone level.
Although Yvan mentions Perle alot and I have heard other brewers mention this as a good bittering hop.

 

[BassoonBrew]

Well with all this discussion I feel doubly privileged to have had Taras Boulba on draft at The Grosvenor in Stockwell last week! Delightful.

 

[dave_77]

Well with all this discussion I feel doubly privileged to have had Taras Boulba on draft at The Grosvenor in Stockwell last week! Delightful.

Lucky you. They only time I have had it on draft was at the Strawberry Thief in Bristol. Luck they had it on the weekend I happened to be there with the Mrs

 

[Sadfield]

Yes, another favourite.
In my previous batch I did use Brewers Gold mid boil to try and get some of that XX bitterness. I did work but not completely. The batch thats condition I used brambling cross mid boil (ran out of BG) as that had a fairly high cohumulone level.
Although Yvan mentions Perle alot and I have heard other brewers mention this as a good bittering hop.

It sounds like you need to go higher in ibus. More ibus doesn't necessarily equate to more bitter initially as we all have a taste threshold, but might mean bitterness stays above or near that threshold longer. It's likely their getting better utilisation on a commercial kit. Water my be a factor, too. What's your profile? The article in my initial post tasks of a very mineral water.

 

[dave_77]

It sounds like you need to go higher in ibus. More ibus doesn't necessarily equate to more bitter initially as we all have a taste threshold, but might mean bitterness stays above or near that threshold longer. It's likely their getting better utilisation on a commercial kit. Water my be a factor, too. What's your profile? The article in my initial post tasks of a very mineral water.

Last batch that I haven't tastes yet was estimated 46ibu and this was the water profile

 

[Sadfield]

Last batch that I haven't tastes yet was estimated 46ibu and this was the water profile
View attachment 86085

Would love to know what they use and class as minerally, but you've got plenty of scope to go more if needed. Graham Wheeler's Dry Pale Ale profile has nearly double the ppm of Calcium, Sulphate and Chloride.

Murphy's profile for Bitter is
Ca-170
Mg-15
Bicarbonate-25
Cl-200
SO4-400

 

[Sadfield]

Found this in my bookmarks.

http://edsbeer.blogspot.com/2017/12/a-visit-to-brasserie-de-la-senne.html