Bottling Temperature?

[Wouter]

If the capacity to absorb gasses increases why do you think it will not just take up some of the gasses in the FV.

 

[Dutto]

Hmmm!

After reading all of the Thread I have to say that Dalton's Law of Partial Pressures will apply during the transfer from the FV to the Bottling Bucket and then from the Bottling Bucket to the Bottle.

Here's really simple way to calculate Partial Pressures as you transfer the brew between the various containers ...

https://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-Partial-Pressure

I've been using this system for many years to reassure myself that I won't completely screw up a brew as I bottle it.

Enjoy! :thumb:

 

[terrym]

If the capacity to absorb gasses increases why do you think it will not just take up some of the gasses in the FV.

I have no idea but hope some one else can let us know.

A typical headspace above the beer in a 25 litre FV is about 3 litres. If its all CO2 thats about 6g. Only a small amount of this will dissolve, since although the top layers of beer get re-saturated with CO2 as the temperature falls, this creates a barrier to further CO2 disssolving. That said if you kept the beer at low temperature for weeks more CO2 would get dissolved since other factors come into play. And assuming the FV is completely leakproof, as more CO2 dissolves a vacuum will be pulled on the FV. I have certainly never noticed that happening. Finally 6g CO2 is equivalent to about 12g priming sugar which in the overall scheme of things ain't very much

 

[Ben034]

A typical headspace above the beer in a 25 litre FV is about 3 litres. If its all CO2 thats about 6g. Only a small amount of this will dissolve, since although the top layers of beer get re-saturated with CO2 as the temperature falls, this creates a barrier to further CO2 disssolving. That said if you kept the beer at low temperature for weeks more CO2 would get dissolved since other factors come into play. And assuming the FV is completely leakproof, as more CO2 dissolves a vacuum will be pulled on the FV. I have certainly never noticed that happening. Finally 6g CO2 is equivalent to about 12g priming sugar which in the overall scheme of things ain't very much

Thanks Terry, that is very helpful. Feeling more confident with priming volume levels now.

 

[-Bezza-]

To quote the info on the Brewer's Friend priming calculator: https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

Temperature of Beer used for computing dissolved CO2:

The beer you are about to package already contains some CO2 since it is a naturally occurring byproduct of fermentation. The amount is temperature dependent. The temperature to enter is usually the fermentation temperature of the beer, but might also be the current temperature of the beer. If the fermentation temperature and the current beer temperature are the same life is simple.

However, if the beer was cold crashed, or put through a diacetyl rest, or the temperature changed for some other reason... you will need to use your judgment to decide which temperature is most representative. During cold crashing, some of the CO2 in the head space will go back into the beer. If you cold crashed for a very long time this may represent a significant increase in dissolved CO2. There is a lot of online debate about this and the internet is thin on concrete answers backed by research. We are open to improving the calculator so please let us know of any sources that clarify this point.

The equation this calculator uses to compute the amount of dissolved CO2:
CO2 In Beer = 3.0378 - (0.050062 * temp) + (0.00026555 * temp^2)

Carbon dioxide (CO2) is a gas produced as a byproduct of fermentation. Although we generally add more CO2 for drinking our beer via priming sugar or by force carbonating, there is CO2 present in the fermenter after fermentation. Temperature is important in this, as liquids "hold" more CO2 when cooler, and release more when the liquid is warmer. The equilibrium in the fermenter under airlock therefore is pressure and temperature dependent. Warming the beer in the fermenter will then make the airlock bubble, as a sign of CO2 being released.

 

[terrym]

To quote the info on the Brewer's Friend priming calculator: https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

Relevant extract below...
'However, if the beer was cold crashed, or put through a diacetyl rest, or the temperature changed for some other reason... you will need to use your judgment to decide which temperature is most representative. During cold crashing, some of the CO2 in the head space will go back into the beer. If you cold crashed for a very long time this may represent a significant increase in dissolved CO2. There is a lot of online debate about this and the internet is thin on concrete answers backed by research. We are open to improving the calculator so please let us know of any sources that clarify this point.'
Or, put another way
'We don't know what to advise so make your own mind up.'
I have made my decision on what to do about the temperature to use for priming and explained my logic in posts above. Others will decide what suits them best (whether they agree with me or not).

 

[-Bezza-]

Exactly - nobody really knows what's going on so don't sweat it.

For me, beer gets bottled at whatever the ambient temperature is in my shed when I come to bottle. Although to be honest I'm not targeting a specific CO2 volume anyway, just something that's about right. As long as it's wet, alcoholic, has some fizz and doesn't taste lick a wet dog, I'm mostly happy!

 

[Wouter]

A typical headspace above the beer in a 25 litre FV is about 3 litres. If its all CO2 thats about 6g. Only a small amount of this will dissolve, since although the top layers of beer get re-saturated with CO2 as the temperature falls, this creates a barrier to further CO2 disssolving. That said if you kept the beer at low temperature for weeks more CO2 would get dissolved since other factors come into play. And assuming the FV is completely leakproof, as more CO2 dissolves a vacuum will be pulled on the FV. I have certainly never noticed that happening. Finally 6g CO2 is equivalent to about 12g priming sugar which in the overall scheme of things ain't very much

Honestly, I really don't know. From this post I take that you completely seal of the vessel when you cold crash? No air lock on it?

I have no idea how long it would take for any gas to diffuse into the young beer to saturate it completely. My field is chemistry and I am not well versed into such dynamics.
But I do think this is a little too complex to just assume these things. You might not care for your process, but you can't be completely sure that what you say is true without an explanation with a basis in either experimental data or just Flux physics.
For instance, why do you think that CO2 diffuses so slow through beer that only the top layers are saturated? I am completely unsure about these rates. I spend the last half hour trying to browse some articles about this, and I am still unsure.

 

[simon12]

I just remembered my sisters husband saying once when he cold crashed a brew to 1c it got a load of starsan in the beer sucked up through the blow off tube, would this have been because the beer absorbed the CO2 or just from it contracting at the lower temp?

 

[terrym]

Honestly, I really don't know. From this post I take that you completely seal of the vessel when you cold crash? No air lock on it?

I have no idea how long it would take for any gas to diffuse into the young beer to saturate it completely. My field is chemistry and I am not well versed into such dynamics.
But I do think this is a little too complex to just assume these things. You might not care for your process, but you can't be completely sure that what you say is true without an explanation with a basis in either experimental data or just Flux physics.
For instance, why do you think that CO2 diffuses so slow through beer that only the top layers are saturated? I am completely unsure about these rates. I spend the last half hour trying to browse some articles about this, and I am still unsure.

Further discussion about what happens to a few grams of CO2 in the headspace isn't worth the bother in my view. You have made you views clear as have I, so let's just chill and agree to differ.

 

[Wouter]

Further discussion about what happens to a few grams of CO2 in the headspace isn't worth the bother in my view. You have made you views clear as have I, so let's just chill and agree to differ.

I hope I wasn't offending you in any way? That definitely was not the intent. I am often quite fiery in discussions and I don't master the English language in all its subtleties.

Not a lot of head space for you btw! Never a problem with Belgian styles? I was always given the advice to reserve ample head space for such styles and never messed around to much for it (I have large enough FV's anyway)

 

[foxbat]

I just remembered my sisters husband saying once when he cold crashed a brew to 1c it got a load of starsan in the beer sucked up through the blow off tube, would this have been because the beer absorbed the CO2 or just from it contracting at the lower temp?

Seem that it's a bit of both if these numbers are correct. I always end up with a bit of Starsan in the beer during the chill to cold crash. It doesn't bother me at all and works out far less than gets left as residue in the Starsan-rinsed bottles when bottling. Foam everywhere on bottling day for me.

 

[nigelnorris]

Gas goes the other way too, easiest way to degas a demijohn of wine is to do nothing, it will degas itself given enough time.

 

[Bigcol49]

Hi!
My mother often says, "You want to know the far end of a fart."
I think that's what we are doing here - academic but pointless to most homebrewers.

 

[Dutto]

Hi!
My mother often says, "You want to know the far end of a fart."
I think that's what we are doing here - academic but pointless to most homebrewers.

Ooooh! Haven't had that snarled at me since I was a kid. :wave:

More than likely, it was in response to my twentieth question in the previous half-hour; and it signified that it was time for me to go and play outside! :thumb: