Bigger enough yeast starter?

[Peteyb]

Hi all,

Recently I've upgraded to a slightly bigger set up and want to really start getting serious with my beer.
I've done alot of reading across probably 100's of websites about everything to do with the nitty gritty of beer and what makes it good, this is more than likely my issue .
The 28th i plan to make my first batch on the new set-up and im looking at a NEPA or something similar to it. Ive used brewers friend to write my recipe, I also used it for the yeast starter naturally.
Im looking at a 45-50L (not sure on efficency or loses as of yet) OG 1.067. Brewersfreind yeast starter calculator said I need 2 packets of wyeast 1056 with a 3L starter to achieve 650 billionish cells for pitching; I'm using proper starters as I got a bundle. Stupidly I've checked another app (brewfather) and its saying a need a 1442 billion cell starter! Now I'm worried my batch will be very underwhelming or fermentation will struggle

Sorry for the essay

Thanks for any help!
Pete

 

[Keruso]

I suggest using home brew dads calculator on brewunited.com. You will need in the region of 650 billion cells, which means a 5 - 6 litre starter depending on the manufacturer date of the yeast. So two 3 litre starters sounds right. That’s not 2 packets of yeast in a 3 litre starter, it’s two separate 3 litre starters with one packet in each. Unless you have an enormous container that can hold 6 litres plus 3 litres headspace you will need to make two starters.

 

[Justin Dean]

I am sure the yest will propagate whatever happens; might take longer to get going as a consequence but unlikely to be overwhelmed

 

[Peteyb]

Thanks for the replies, I have to say Justin's fills me with hope however keruso I understand your point!
Would it be ok to pitch 2 packs of yeast into on starter anyway? I kinda don't have a option if I want to brew on the 28th! No homebrew stores anywhere near me and can't get delivery before then
Im not to bothered if it doesn't start quickly tbh but just want a good fermentation

Thanks!

 

[cossie.j]

I’ve found brewers friend and Brewfather to be pretty much the same in terms of starter calculations? Though admittedly, I’ve found brewers friends yeast viability to be more accurate. For my next brew I’m aiming for a 1.060 OG and Brewfathers calculator recommend a pitch rate of 381 bc for a 23 Ltr batch? So I’ll stick with that.

 

[strange-steve]

Would it be ok to pitch 2 packs of yeast into on starter anyway?

As long as it's a big enough starter so as not to be oversaturated. Do you have a stir plate or will you be manually shaking?

I’ve found brewers friends yeast viability to be more accurate.

How can you tell?

 

[cossie.j]

As long as it's a big enough starter so as not to be oversaturated. Do you have a stir plate or will you be manually shaking?

How can you tell?

It was something I think i read on Brulosophy about yeast viability, and shelf life of liquid yeast. From my understanding ( I’m no expert and always learning ) is that liquid yeast loses about 20% viability a month? I think this was quoted by Chris white. This may or may not be true? So what i did was check a few different calculators out, and all of which come up with different percentages. I found a couple to be quite optimistic, but brewersfriend seemed to be always on the lower end percentage wise? So i stuck with that really.

 

[Peteyb]

As long as it's a big enough starter so as not to be oversaturated. Do you have a stir plate or will you be manually shaking?

I have a stir plate and one 3L beaker.
Im quickly and unfortunately learning this may not be enough for 2 packs of 100ml (200ml in total (not that I needed to tell you that )) in that one beaker or for at least one starter! As said before 2 starters may be needed.

Is it possible to make a starter and store it? Whilst the other one is being made?
Although I've had some good answers already is there a definite way to get about this?

I have gone into this abit optimistic and blind

It was something I think i read on Brulosophy about yeast viability, and shelf life of liquid yeast. From my understanding ( I’m no expert and always learning ) is that liquid yeast loses about 20% viability a month? I think this was quoted by Chris white. This may or may not be true? So what i did was check a few different calculators out, and all of which come up with different percentages. I found a couple to be quite optimistic, but brewersfriend seemed to be always on the lower end percentage wise? So i stuck with that really.

Its pretty new yeast not a month old I believe so thats a plus. Brewers friend for me was the lowest percentage wise and I feel of I use this all the time at least ill get the same results

Thanks again guys

 

[Keruso]

Thanks for the replies, I have to say Justin's fills me with hope however keruso I understand your point!
Would it be ok to pitch 2 packs of yeast into on starter anyway? I kinda don't have a option if I want to brew on the 28th! No homebrew stores anywhere near me and can't get delivery before then
Im not to bothered if it doesn't start quickly tbh but just want a good fermentation

My suggestion is to buy a 5 Litre bottle of Tesco Ashbeck. Use 400g DME and 4 litres of water to make your starter. Put both packs of yeast in. Calculators estimate around 500 billion cells will be created which is pretty close to what you need. Shake it every few hours, keep in the dark and around 18-20°c. Loosely place sanitized foil for a lid to let it breath. I only have a 2 litre flask and stir plate. When I need a 3 litre starter I make a 1 litre starter with it first and then dump the lot into a two litre starter making 3 in total into an Ashbeck bottle and shake it. Yours may take over 48 hours for the yeast to drop. Once the yeast has dropped If you can chill it and pour off 3 litres of the liquid, obviously not the yeast cake, rather than putting it all in. Be careful to sanitize everything.

 

[Keruso]

I have a stir plate and one 3L beaker.
Im quickly and unfortunately learning this may not be enough for 2 packs of 100ml (200ml in total (not that I needed to tell you that )) in that one beaker or for at least one starter! As said before 2 starters may be needed.

Is it possible to make a starter and store it? Whilst the other one is being made?
Although I've had some good answers already is there a definite way to get about this?

I have gone into this abit optimistic and blind



Its pretty new yeast not a month old I believe so thats a plus. Brewers friend for me was the lowest percentage wise and I feel of I use this all the time at least ill get the same results

Thanks again guys

Yes you can make two 2 litre starters and store the first. It’s more efficient using the stir plate but I find making multiple starters such a faff I thought a single 4 litre using the shake method would suffice.

 

[cossie.j]

I have a stir plate and one 3L beaker.
Im quickly and unfortunately learning this may not be enough for 2 packs of 100ml (200ml in total (not that I needed to tell you that )) in that one beaker or for at least one starter! As said before 2 starters may be needed.

Is it possible to make a starter and store it? Whilst the other one is being made?
Although I've had some good answers already is there a definite way to get about this?

I have gone into this abit optimistic and blind



Its pretty new yeast not a month old I believe so thats a plus. Brewers friend for me was the lowest percentage wise and I feel of I use this all the time at least ill get the same results

Thanks again guys

Looking at both Brewfather and brewersfriend, the pitch rates are pretty close? Let’s say you aimed for a 45 ltr batch. Brewfather has added in a step to achieve your pitch rate, first do a 2LTR starter let it run its course ( possibly 24_36 hours? ) then decant the spent beer, and then add another 2.5 LRT on top of the yeast. This’ll give you a 760 bc, assuming you’ll be using a stir plate? I’m sure someone will come up possibly with a better solution as I’m by no means an expert on the subject. This way you can utilize the equipment you already have without having to spend out on more? If you plan on making big starters in the near future, then definitely invest in a 5 LTR flask ?

 

[Peteyb]

All your advice is really helped!
Knowing I can store a starter and pitch it into another one is really what I was hoping to do.

Ideally i should researched what I was shooting for abit closer and got a bigger flask. Next time this is what I'll do

Thanks guys and Merry Christmas!

 

[Peteyb]

Thanks everyone again for your help!
Hope you all had a nice Christmas.

I used your advice made my starter and done my first brew day yesterday. I had vigorous fermentation within 4 hours of pitching and today I could here it bubbling from outside my shed

 

[cossie.j]

Thanks everyone again for your help!
Hope you all had a nice Christmas.

I used your advice made my starter and done my first brew day yesterday. I had vigorous fermentation within 4 hours of pitching and today I could here it bubbling from outside my shed

Great stuff what did you end up doing Starter wise? And your final brew volume.
Had a fantastic Christmas thank you, and I’m all set up for a brewing session tomorrow.

 

[Peteyb]

Great stuff what did you end up doing Starter wise? And your final brew volume.
Had a fantastic Christmas thank you, and I’m all set up for a brewing session tomorrow.

I ended up making 2, one 48 hours prior and just keeping the yeast cake in the fridge. Made the second one as normal and on the day I warmed the cake up slowly and pitched it in with the other.

I ended up with 43l, alot under my predicted. We had some very compromising issues the heat exchanger blocked during cooling/transfer and as you could imagine it was terrible! Somehow some hop leafs (that were ordered as pellets) escaped the hop spider!
Honestly I don't hold alot of hope for the final product being what I wanted but hey, thats the fun of it right

Good stuff! What you brewing tomorrow?

 

[cossie.j]

I ended up making 2, one 48 hours prior and just keeping the yeast cake in the fridge. Made the second one as normal and on the day I warmed the cake up slowly and pitched it in with the other.

I ended up with 43l, alot under my predicted. We had some very compromising issues the heat exchanger blocked during cooling/transfer and as you could imagine it was terrible! Somehow some hop leafs (that were ordered as pellets) escaped the hop spider!
Honestly I don't hold alot of hope for the final product being what I wanted but hey, thats the fun of it right

Good stuff! What you brewing tomorrow?

Glad it all worked out for ya in the end and you brewed beer nonetheless, I’m sure it’ll turn out just fine.
I ended up brewing just a basic pale ale, single malt ( golden promises ) with mosaic and citra. Should be a nice crisp hoppy ale for the spring if i can leave it in the keg long enough? Apart from the crush being way too fine, it turned out better than expected. Pitched the yeast 5 hours ago and it’s already off like a rocket