Best all-in-one brewing system

[Old Fart At Play]

The cheaper S40 does not have much to be fair two stage heating and recirculation The user interface/controller is poor however if you understand what is happening the system can make really good wort. I worked in science research for all my working life and without wanting to sound like a knowall should have been Noble prize winner that sort of background sets you up perfectly to understand the faults and how to solve the problems, it is what you did. In praise of the S40 it is well made and has the potential to make decent wort but you need to understand what you are trying to do.

Interesting, but I was just filling in the blanks from AGs post (ie which GF models had PID)

 

[Old Fart At Play]

I flit between Crisp, Warminster and Simpsons

what a gag! Love it

 

[tigertim]

Yep, got one of those as part of the order. It's one of the things I'm looking forward to - controlling the mash temp rather than letting it drift down through my target range.

Im happy to be corrected, but I believe the BT thermometer is in addition to the temperature sensor which already exists in the base of the unit. So it’s not technically necessary for controlling the temperature of the mash, but does apparently improve its accuracy.

 

[Twostage]

Im happy to be corrected, but I believe the BT thermometer is in addition to the temperature sensor which already exists in the base of the unit. So it’s not technically necessary for controlling the temperature of the mash, but does apparently improve its accuracy.

Yes, its an additional sensor, not essential but I watched the MM video on it and during the main part of the mash the temp hardly moved when they used it.

 

[jambop]

Watch this guy's vids he kows what he is about and seems to be doing keglands trouble shooting for them
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCRxfmZKigk

 

[jambop]

The

Im happy to be corrected, but I believe the BT thermometer is in addition to the temperature sensor which already exists in the base of the unit. So it’s not technically necessary for controlling the temperature of the mash, but does apparently improve its accuracy.

BT thermo is an addition but is used to control the system if you choose. According to Kegland it can be set to monitor a temperature difference betweem the top and the bottom to regulate the heating element and avoid high temperature over shoots.

 

[LeeH]

You can pick up a BM on eBay for £500. Which is a lot but a good saving.

 

[MashBag]

I think it may be the difference in the controller.

Absolutely.
It's the amount of power used for reheat. The controller needs to deliver little and often, not a big bang 2000w (or whatever). It's about balance.

I proved this getting the right settings to run the BM as a fermentation vessel.

 

[foxy]

I can certainly say mine holds temperature.

I think all purchasers need have the correct expectation: These are accurate boilers with extras. They are not brewing robots that you can just pour grains in the top and get beer out the bottom.

The Brau Meister is a different kettle of fish Mash Bag. I agree that it will hold a mash temperature better than other SVB's no matter what gadgets are attached to them.
To believe that those other systems using an MP10RN pump are better than another system using an MP10RN pump isn't right, they can only be as good as each other.
So does a PID make a difference? Well, it can ramp up temperatures quickly and hold them but it is still being dictated to by the temperature probe at the bottom of the vessel, not the mash.
Water (and mash) is not a good conductor of heat. It needs to be stirred effectively to distribute the heat.
During the mash, it takes only 20 minutes to convert the starches into simple sugars. It isn't such a big deal to do a regular stir during the first 20 minutes.
Because all my brews are full-volume mash, (6-1 ratio, not 3-1) I have an advantage in that I am not going to lose much heat from my mash water in the heat exchange between grain and water. So I can dough in closer to my saccharification temperature, a few stirs during that 20 minutes and I can leave it alone. When someone comes up with an SBV for home brewers that uses microwave technology, then that will be the game changer.
Watch all the promotional videos about WIFI, dual probes, and Bluetooth but take them with a pinch of salt.

 

[jambop]

Agree with that Foxy. What I do with my system is dough in and let the mash sit for the first 10- 15 mins before I switch on the pump and reciculate . I have the heater on low setting and take the temperature of the mash with my good thermomerter. I ignore the display temp during mashing and go with the recirculated wort temp manually switching the heater on and off. It is not ideal but I find it works as my system is well insulated . I get decent conversion usually around 82-85%. Brewing should be hands on anyway

 

[MashBag]

To believe that those other systems using an MP10RN pump are better than another system using an MP10RN pump isn't right, they can only be as good as each other.
So does a PID make a difference?

I sort of agree, but not quite

I think the pump is one of many parts, including ports, pipes, joints, element size & density, volume, malt pipe design, probe positioning etc etc that make a difference. The controller code (and control) is where the magic happens to bring all of those parts into balance.

It also doesn't help that many of them are the same thing with a different badge and better marketing

 

[gavp1979]

I think it may be the difference in the controller.

The G30 (not sure about other grainfather models) has a PID controller which accurately controls the temperature and is designed to prevent against things like overshoot. It'll more gradually approach the target temperature in the final stages. During the mash, it will sit at a low percentage power to keep the temperature "just right" rather than waiting for it to drop, then coming in at full power.

Whereas I think (not checked) the other models just have a "turn element on 100% if it's under target temperature and off otherwise" which leads to overshoots.

It's probably why the GF is more expensive, but more accurate too

The BZ G4 also has a pod controller, that being said I have not checked the mash temp with a separate thermometer and will probably pick up the rapt thermometer at some point

 

[foxy]

I sort of agree, but not quite

I think the pump is one of many parts, including ports, pipes, joints, element size & density, volume, malt pipe design, probe positioning etc etc that make a difference. The controller code (and control) is where the magic happens to bring all of those parts into balance.

It also doesn't help that many of them are the same thing with a different badge and better marketing

The pumps on the Grainfather, Hop Cat Brewmonk, Brewzilla were all MP10 RN. The Brewzilla and Grainfather have upgraded to the 15 version but only for the bigger units, I believe.

 

[Rodcx500z]

This is what i do on my BZgen3, i fill with strike water and set temp at 70c with full power 2400w when it gets to 70 i turn both element off and dough in, i then leave it for 10 minutes to settle give it a stir and take a temp reading normally it is 65c, turn 900w element on set at 68c top plate on start the pump and take a reading of what is coming up from the bottom normally 68c the top half will be 65c ' so i have 68c wort coming from the bottom which then flows over 65c wort and down through the grain bed i reckon overall temp is 66-67c, i nearly always hit my numbers and the beer is good. all these all in one's are a compromise you will never get a set temp you just have to live with it 2c low or high i reckon is pretty good

 

[foxy]

This is what i do on my BZgen3, i fill with strike water and set temp at 70c with full power 2400w when it gets to 70 i turn both element off and dough in, i then leave it for 10 minutes to settle give it a stir and take a temp reading normally it is 65c, turn 900w element on set at 68c top plate on start the pump and take a reading of what is coming up from the bottom normally 68c the top half will be 65c ' so i have 68c wort coming from the bottom which then flows over 65c wort and down through the grain bed i reckon overall temp is 66-67c, i nearly always hit my numbers and the beer is good. all these all in one's are a compromise you will never get a set temp you just have to live with it 2c low or high i reckon is pretty good

It isn't about the wort on the top or bottom. It's the temperature inside the grain in the mash, I read of a guy on homebrew talk who calibrated two thermometers to the PID on checking the two thermometers had a discrepancy of 10 degrees F translates to about a 5C difference.

 

[Rodcx500z]

It isn't about the wort on the top or bottom. It's the temperature inside the grain in the mash, I read of a guy on homebrew talk who calibrated two thermometers to the PID on checking the two thermometers had a discrepancy of 10 degrees F translates to about a 5C difference.

All i know Foxy is i make great beer, i try and not get up tight about the finer points not much point really if you don't have a brewery on tap. i just do the best i can with what i have, some times you can get bogged down with all the blurb and shinney stuff and don't forget all grain can be and is better than brewery stuff

 

[The Baron]

This is what i do on my BZgen3, i fill with strike water and set temp at 70c with full power 2400w when it gets to 70 i turn both element off and dough in, i then leave it for 10 minutes to settle give it a stir and take a temp reading normally it is 65c, turn 900w element on set at 68c top plate on start the pump and take a reading of what is coming up from the bottom normally 68c the top half will be 65c ' so i have 68c wort coming from the bottom which then flows over 65c wort and down through the grain bed i reckon overall temp is 66-67c, i nearly always hit my numbers and the beer is good. all these all in one's are a compromise you will never get a set temp you just have to live with it 2c low or high i reckon is pretty good

I bet if you measure the middle of the grainbed you are about right Rod, seems a good method to me

 

[MashBag]

So..... Is it fair to say that most people use an all in one, just the same as BIAB with heating and pumping set manually? Is programming the steps not used or not reliable?

 

[Agentgonzo]

So..... Is it fair to say that most people use an all in one, just the same as BIAB with heating and pumping set manually? Is programming the steps not used or not reliable?

I use step mashes all the time. Perfectly accurate and reliable on the g30.

I do stop the pump, give the grain bed a good stir for a minute then start the pump again. I do this at about the 5 and 10 minute mark as it increases the flow rate through the grain bed. From then on the pump can be run at full speed without wort going down the overflow. The pid controller ensures the mash temperature is accurate (no over/undershoot) and the high flow rate ensures the temperature is consistent throughout the grain bed.

After reading this thread, it seems the "all AIOs are the same" is a fallacy.

 

[foxy]

So..... Is it fair to say that most people use an all in one, just the same as BIAB with heating and pumping set manually? Is programming the steps not used or not reliable?

As most brewers use highly modified malt there is just no need to step mash. Even moderately modified malt doesn't need a step mash, doing a protein rest does more harm than good breaking up the protein and affecting body and head retention.
The only time I do a step, and it is only within the parameters of the saccharification rest is the Hochkurz mash.