Beginner making Cider - Some Advice Please

[Amnesia180]

Hi All,

I'm going to attempt to make cider this year, picking/collecting my own apples from the orchard.

My rough plan is as follows (following the pressing of the apples);
1) Syphon the juice into demi-johns (up to just below the neck to allow for bubbling/froth) and add Campden tablets, put cotton wool in the lids.
2) Leave 24 hours for Campden tablets to work.
3) Test levels, taking a sample of liquid into a clean beaker. Looking for 1.040 - 1.045 (add sugar if need it stronger).
4) Then add yeast. Secure airlock (use sodium metabisulphate solution)
Fermentation will begin.
5) Leave until primary fermentation has stopped (bubbling has slowed) (should I add another Campden tablet at this stage?)
6) Transfer via syphon to new clean demi-john leaving sediment (lees) behind, let fermentation continue.
7) Once bubbling finishes, fermentation is complete.
Specific Gravity should be 1.000 for 3 consecutive days.

I'm going to do 3 x 1 Gallon batches and will try the following yeasts;
Lalvin EC-1118 Champagne Yeast
Safale S-04, English Ale Yeast
White Labs WLP 775 English Cider Yeast

My main question is, does this sound okay as a process?

My follow up question, once at the secondary fermentation at point 6 (above), does the cider have to fill the demijohn to the top of the neck? Obviously the sediment will leave a gap in volume in the liquid once I have racked it over... so should I be looking to top up the liquid somehow, or just leave it with a gap? Alternatively, before I syphon to new demijohns at point 6, I could make some more juice by pressing more apples to top up the difference the day before?

I'm planning on making the first batch this weekend. Next weekend I go away for a couple of weeks - so I'm hoping primary will be finished at around the same time I get back so I can rack away from the sediment.

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[IainM]

Hi Amnesia,
Don't worry too much about the campden/metabisulphate. The traditional method is to press the juice and leave it. You can add one and wait 24h if you like, and this will kill off most the bacteria so the yeast has a free run at eating up all those sugars. I wouldn't add any more when pitching the yeast or racking, it will just stun your yeast and slow things down a bit. You can rack at any time you want, so if you want to rack before you leave you can. I wouldn't fret too much if you can't though. Leaving the cider on the sediment is only a problem for large commercial operations when the pressure on the bottom of the fermentation vessel is large enough to burst the yeast cells and release a bunch of enzymes which can affect the flavour of the cider. This isn't an issue for homebrew.

 

[Drop]

Speaking as a cider novice...

Basically ok but adding pectolase (1tsp per gallon) in Step 1 may help your cider to clear a little faster, if you care about such things.

Adding sugar can equate to subtracting flavour. Consider accepting the OG "as is" rather than pushing for a particular value.

For sterilising the DJ (and bottles, and equipment) I've had consistently good results using StarSan.

Consider adding tannin, e.g. stick 6 tea bags in a mug, add boiling water and leave to cool, then add to the must. Tannin, as I understand it, adds a little desirable bitterness and helps preserve the cider, although I have found it is no defence against thirst. I forgot to add tannin with the first batch of cider from our orchard and it came out fine anyway.

I would not add Campden Tablet at Step 5.

Fermentation may stop at 1.000 but could be quite a bit either side of that value. Regardless, leave it a few weeks or more before bottling.

EC-1118 works well (if you like dry cider) but I've not tried the others, so it will be interesting to hear how you get on.

Try adding patience. My first batch sat in a DJ for three months and in bottles for another three months, and tasted damn good. Since then I've been less patient but the cider often has a noticeable sulphur smell which, happily, dissipates within a few weeks. I believe it suggests a lack of yeast nutrients causing them stress so adding some raisins, deceased yeast or proper nutrients at the start may help.

You might want to leave a little extra headroom in the DJ for the first few days to protect against over enthusiastic fermentation. Top up thereafter.

If you lose a lot of volume when racking to the second DJ feel free to top up a bit, with more juice. Reducing surface area is a good idea but you don't need to fill up right to the neck.

 

[Amnesia180]

Thanks both for the useful replies.

I've been picking apples this weekend and leaving them out to ripen a little. Looking forward to watching them ferment.

Drop; you mention must - is this the juice?

All the packets I've got say they do 5 gallons. I'm going to use half a pack as I'm only doing 1 gallon batches and I'm going to experiment between apples that drop/pick in the next few weeks and apples that are late October-ish to see if there's a taste difference.

I agree, I don't think I'm going to be experimenting with sugar etc.

I've got some yeast nutrient, so I'll add that at the same time I drop the yeast powder into the juice (I won't be making starter's or anything like that).

StarSan sounds like a good idea, I've got sodium metabisulphate for cleaning/sterilising aswell.

You mentioned I could just make some more juice to top up, will it matter if I add a little at the second fermentation stage? Once I've racked away from the cider, or would it better to try and make a smaller half gallon batch of cider at the same so it's cider I'm topping it up with? (sounds simple just to press some more fresh juice when I need it and top it up the half a litre or so).

Over the next few days I'm going to press apples, make a 1 gallon batch using half a packet of EC-1118, yeast nutrient, put an airlock on the top and watch what happens.

Thanks for all the advice, really appreciate it.

 

[Dads_Ale]

I juiced some apples and pears last week and I must say the juicer made loads of froth.
I had enough to put into two demijohns (one only 1/2 full)
There was loads of crud at the top and bottom. Next day a quick smell gave a bit of a rotting fruit smell so I syphoned both into a new demijohn (minus the crud) and added some cider yeast (well out of date :)). A week later it finished fermenting and is bottled. A bit tart (just how I like it) but just as good as the local real cider producer...

I must say that the juicer is a pain in the neck but handy if you only have a few apples.

 

[Drop]

Yes, "must" is the unfermented juice and any other fermentables that you bung in. What beer makers call "wort" cider and wine makers call "must", just to be awkward. In Sweden a place that presses apples is called a "musteri" and "äpplemust" is one word for apple juice, so this bloody-mindedness is not new.

Half a pack of yeast should be fine for 1 gallon batches. For larger batches it may be worth rehydrating the dried yeast according to the manufacturer's instructions as perhaps twice as many cells will survive the wake up call.

As is often said about StarSan, it seems pricey but you use so little it works out very cheap and is very effective.

For a first batch, I would not bother topping up. You can play with that sort of thing later on. Juice vs half-fermented cider? No idea, but I seem to get by without.

 

[freester]

Well researched and I can't add any more to the advice above. Let us know how it goes! Had my first 2017 apple day yesterday. Damned hard work but nearly 80l of juice ready to ferment!

 

[Amnesia180]

I'd like to thank everyone for the help.

I took the plunge and decided to start this weekend. Apples had been picked and were left to ripen a little more - the smell from them was amazing and they had turned far more red in a lot of cases than when they were first picked.

Everything was sterilised, including the buckets/trays that the sterilised demijohns/tools would then sit on.

The apples were then crushed (all bruised/rotten bits taken out).
They were then squeezed for juice.

Unfortunately, the demijohns were too tall, so we had to improvise and use a sterilised tub to collect the juice and pour into demijohn instead.

Here's a few pictures, I'll continue to add more as progress is made.

OG is 1048 for EC1118 and 1050 for S04

The demijohns are currently sat stored in a dark cupboard (no natural light) with a constant temperature. Will this be OK?

 

[gar]

I just started a cider from the apples in the garden. OG 1040.
no fermentation after 4 days, so I re-pitched with some fresh yeast.
2 days later still nothing, SG remains 1040.
any ideas?
cheers

 

[freester]

I just started a cider from the apples in the garden. OG 1040.
no fermentation after 4 days, so I re-pitched with some fresh yeast.
2 days later still nothing, SG remains 1040.
any ideas?
cheers

You'd probably get a better response if you started another thread rather than adding this to somebody else's. But my questions / ideas are as follows...

1) What makes you actually say it's not fermenting apart from the SG?
2) What temperature is the room where you are fermenting your juice?
3) What are you fermenting it in (demi-john / fermenting bucket)?
4) What yeast?
5) Did you add nutrient as well as yeast?
6) Did you add campdens before adding the yeast? How much? How much juice?

My experience (which is very little) from fermenting apple juice pressed from apples is it can take a while to get going. If you add campdens or too many campdens it can take a while to get started.

I've always added nutrient as well as yeast.

I add the yeast / nutrient 24 hours after pouring the juice over campdens (knowledge is 1 per gallon but usually use 4 per 25l fermenting bin).

This year everything got going after 24-36 hours in my garage which is around 22 deg C right now.

Depending on the yeast / fermenting buckets the airlock may not bubble. But after a few days I can hear a soft fizzing sound coming from the bins.

 

[freester]

Unfortunately, the demijohns were too tall, so we had to improvise and use a sterilised tub to collect the juice and pour into demijohn instead.

Not a problem. I ferment in fermenting buckets so press into a small bucket then transfer / pour into the fermenting bin. I actually put another strainer bag in a funnel and pour into the bin that way to filter any pulp that may have been dropped in the press juice tray.

The demijohns are currently sat stored in a dark cupboard (no natural light) with a constant temperature. Will this be OK?

Sounds perfect. I personally don't worry about keeping the light off the fermenting vessels at this stage.

Good work. Attention to sterilisation at every stage will do no harm...

 

[Amnesia180]

Hi gar,

I can't help I'm afraid. This morning I woke up and the fermentation has started.

 

[Amnesia180]

Not a problem. I ferment in fermenting buckets so press into a small bucket then transfer / pour into the fermenting bin. I actually put another strainer bag in a funnel and pour into the bin that way to filter any pulp that may have been dropped in the press juice tray.

Sounds perfect. I personally don't worry about keeping the light off the fermenting vessels at this stage.

Good work. Attention to sterilisation at every stage will do no harm...

Thanks for the reply.

We did end up using a sieve to catch the pulp and pips that made its way through.

Fermentation seems to have started (I hope). Froth is forming on top, but no bubbles in the airlock yet (we half filled them with water so the water level sits level across the two sections).

 

[gar]

You'd probably get a better response if you started another thread rather than adding this to somebody else's. But my questions / ideas are as follows...

1) What makes you actually say it's not fermenting apart from the SG?
2) What temperature is the room where you are fermenting your juice?
3) What are you fermenting it in (demi-john / fermenting bucket)?
4) What yeast?
5) Did you add nutrient as well as yeast?
6) Did you add campdens before adding the yeast? How much? How much juice?

My experience (which is very little) from fermenting apple juice pressed from apples is it can take a while to get going. If you add campdens or too many campdens it can take a while to get started.

I've always added nutrient as well as yeast.

I add the yeast / nutrient 24 hours after pouring the juice over campdens (knowledge is 1 per gallon but usually use 4 per 25l fermenting bin).

This year everything got going after 24-36 hours in my garage which is around 22 deg C right now.

Depending on the yeast / fermenting buckets the airlock may not bubble. But after a few days I can hear a soft fizzing sound coming from the bins.

hi freester. Thanks for the replies. sorry the post is in wrong place. New on here...
1 no change in SG and no froth or bubbles after 7 days.
2 temp is low 20 s.
3 glass demijon.
4. The first yeast was for wine. second yeast was ale.
5 no nutrient.
6 one campden in the pulp. One gallon of juice pressed from it.
thanks.

 

[freester]

Fair enough. I'd be tempted to add some nutrient and pitch a wine / champagne / cider specific yeast at the same time...

 

[Amnesia180]

Hi all, I am wondering if you can help me with my next stage.

Primary fermentation is almost over, one reads 1009 and the other reads 1005.

However, as you can see, the levels are low with quite a bit of sediment in the bottom. I have some fresh AJ that I pressed yesterday. Can I decant into a DJ later this week and just add that AJ to top it up? If not, what are my other alternatives?

(My plan is to decant to fresh DJs, then leave for several weeks. Once matured, I'll bottle (adding sugar to a couple to try making them fizzy).

I will not be around from Thursday for just over one week, so I am playing cautious as I'm not sure I can just leave the DJ in its current state that long once fermentation has completed.

Any advice welcome!

 

[Drop]

Relax. I would not bother topping up. A week or four post fermentation is far more likely to help than harm.

 

[Amnesia180]

Thanks. I got another 3 gallons made and decided to top one up (before I read this post) and leave the other as it was as a backup.

I've got for WLP775 and Nottingham Ale. All three bubbling away nicely.

All are going to be left for a couple of weeks then I'll test again.

 

[gar]

hi freester. Thanks for the replies. sorry the post is in wrong place. New on here...
1 no change in SG and no froth or bubbles after 7 days.
2 temp is low 20 s.
3 glass demijon.
4. The first yeast was for wine. second yeast was ale.
5 no nutrient.
6 one campden in the pulp. One gallon of juice pressed from it.
thanks.

hi again
I have re-pitched the yeast about 6 times, still nothing.
I've made starters etc, still nowt.
I was going to ditch this batch of juice, thinking that there was nothing fermentable in it. then I added about 100 gram per litre of sugar , giving gravity of about 1070 and re-pitched again. it started to ferment!
it's down to 996 at moment.
any ideas why the apple juice alone would not ferment?
I've got stacks of apples on the tree and don't want to waste them or have to add tons of sugar to them.
cheers