Beginner advice - journey to hitting numbers

[hoppyscotty]

Hi All, a newbie to home brewing. Done a few all grain brews now and just trying to get some consistency in my process. Have found that I'm struggling to hit all my numbers simultanously - I either achieve target volumes but not gravities, or achieve gravities and not volumes. What journey have people been on to get where they are today and hit the desired outcomes? Should I be focussing on one thing over the other e.g. focus on achieving gravities and get whatever volume I get, or aim for volume or am I missing some clever trick of the trade? Thanks. Scott

 

[Gerryjo]

Hi All, a newbie to home brewing. Done a few all grain brews now and just trying to get some consistency in my process. Have found that I'm struggling to hit all my numbers simultanously - I either achieve target volumes but not gravities, or achieve gravities and not volumes. What journey have people been on to get where they are today and hit the desired outcomes? Should I be focussing on one thing over the other e.g. focus on achieving gravities and get whatever volume I get, or aim for volume or am I missing some clever trick of the trade? Thanks. Scott

This is a classic example for beginners and experienced homebrewers when using all grain and its getting the variables to come together to achieve your target.

1 - Grain for simplicity will come in 2 forms Crushed where the supplier will use their mill to pre crush your order for you and this varies on the setting they will have to determine if its fine or course which will affect the amount of starch released for conversion to sugar.

2 - Equipment of which varies from homemade to off the shelf professional has a lot of factors to be dialled in before you get to know how it works and with this I refer to deadspace which will be your loss of liquid which lies below your tap which could be anything from 1 to 4 litres.
Heating to the correct temperature needs checked for Calibration due to the effect this has on starch conversion with alpha/beta amylase.

3 - Water calculation is another critical factor as too much and your over in liquid and under in Starting Gravity.
Some people do full volume mashing and sparging to keep it simple and again its down to volume but either way stirring it regularly and ensuring that there is no dry grain clumped up helps release more starch from the grain.

4 - Brewing software again needs to be set up for the equipment you're using which will help you to determine your efficiency from all of the above.

Give a brief detail of the above and we can help determine where you might want to make a few changes to your routine.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Thanks Gerry. We're using a Brewzilla and Brewfather app and following what it says blindly. Brewed the same recipe twice now and will compare once they're ready as we did first brew 2 weeks ago and last Saturday bottled the first brew and did the second mash so not actually tasted the final product yet. We got the recipe from a Homebrew book, but that just gave final batch size, grain mix and weights, hop additions and OG, FG, EBU etc so we've plugged it in to the Brewfather app to get the overall process. It was a Pale Ale so used the Americal Pale Ale profiles in the Brewfather App.

The grain crus was the same in both batches as we bought the grain together.
Trusted the Brewfather app regarding lost volume, water volumes and brewhouse efficiency so the same assumptions in both cases.
Appreciate we need to tune the equipment profile, but just trying to see what our consistency is like initially to get a feel for where we're at.

Missed the recipe OG, but got reasonable consistency from the first brew to the second for OG. But ended up with 2 litre discrepancy, but at two different parts in the process.

In the first batch we were 2 litres down in the fermentor so added 2 litres into the fermentor In the 2nd we were 2 litres down after the mash so added 2 litres to the sparge water (not sure where its best to add water to make up batch volume). Ended up with the same OG (well one point difference between the two), but missed the recipe OG (achieved 1.046 against target of 1.049). As far as we're concerned regarding the process we did the same thing, we certainly set out to do the same thing, but can't think why we missed volume at different points in the process. We did empty the Brewzilla into the fermentor via the tap and tilted the unit to minimise lost volume. We have really been focussing on hitting batch volume rather than gravities as we're greedy and want to get the most beer! One difference was ambient temp as we mashed in the garage with the garage door open and it was alot colder last weekend compared to 2 weekends ago, so might that have affected evaporation rates?

Thanks.

 

[Gerryjo]

Sounds like you have got things in hand and brewing 2 in a row for comparison is a good idea.
It's possible that the grain crush is affecting your efficiency so would be easy enough to reduce your efficiency on the app and adding some extra grain to compensate.
You'll get the hang of your BrewZilla as I have one myself and I'm having to dial it in compared to my old system.
Good luck and keep on brewing

 

[foxy]

Thanks Gerry. We're using a Brewzilla and Brewfather app and following what it says blindly. Brewed the same recipe twice now and will compare once they're ready as we did first brew 2 weeks ago and last Saturday bottled the first brew and did the second mash so not actually tasted the final product yet. We got the recipe from a Homebrew book, but that just gave final batch size, grain mix and weights, hop additions and OG, FG, EBU etc so we've plugged it in to the Brewfather app to get the overall process. It was a Pale Ale so used the Americal Pale Ale profiles in the Brewfather App.

The grain crus was the same in both batches as we bought the grain together.
Trusted the Brewfather app regarding lost volume, water volumes and brewhouse efficiency so the same assumptions in both cases.
Appreciate we need to tune the equipment profile, but just trying to see what our consistency is like initially to get a feel for where we're at.

Missed the recipe OG, but got reasonable consistency from the first brew to the second for OG. But ended up with 2 litre discrepancy, but at two different parts in the process.

In the first batch we were 2 litres down in the fermentor so added 2 litres into the fermentor In the 2nd we were 2 litres down after the mash so added 2 litres to the sparge water (not sure where its best to add water to make up batch volume). Ended up with the same OG (well one point difference between the two), but missed the recipe OG (achieved 1.046 against target of 1.049). As far as we're concerned regarding the process we did the same thing, we certainly set out to do the same thing, but can't think why we missed volume at different points in the process. We did empty the Brewzilla into the fermentor via the tap and tilted the unit to minimise lost volume. We have really been focussing on hitting batch volume rather than gravities as we're greedy and want to get the most beer! One difference was ambient temp as we mashed in the garage with the garage door open and it was alot colder last weekend compared to 2 weekends ago, so might that have affected evaporation rates?

Thanks.

The dead space in the kettle also serves the purpose of letting the trub settle into the bottom of the kettle and not going into the fermenter. I use Brewers Friend but put in my own profile.
Whichever program you use can't be regarded as gospel, when it comes to efficiency, loss of liquor to grain and dead space.
You have to work that out by trial and error, work out your own efficiency and how much you are losing to grain absorption. The dead space may be 2.5 to 3 litres, two things you can do with the trub. 1) Discard it. 2) Pour the trub into a jug place in the fridge let everything settle out, decant the clear wort into a saucepan boil it and either put it into the fermenter or bottle it to be used as a starter.
https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/trub-seperation-why-and-how/

 

[Richard_H]

As someone who does all grain via the stovetop BIAB method I find that longer and lower mashes at 63-65c give slightly better efficiency , sometimes longer is only 15 minutes but if I have the time and the mash smells particularly good then it might being a 1.5 to 2 hour mash. When I fancy having a go at it an overnight/12 hour mash is on the to do list as the efficiency is supposed to be excellent.

Having said that reading your comments you seem very clued up for a newbie, and getting within 3 points of target gravity is something I suspect most homebrewers would be happy with.

 

[Drunkula]

I find that longer and lower mashes at 63-65c give slightly better efficiency

Are you using the lower temperature and then calculating the efficiency based on the ABV you get? If so that's not actually better efficiency but better fermentability and they're not the same.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Thanks all for advice. I've done a hell of alot of hours of YouTube watching and googling and hanging around of forums like this, so sounds like some of that effort might have sunk in. I'll keep cracking on then. Maybe I just need to get a good number of brews under my belt to get a good feel for what's going on. Ultimately as long as what we're producing is drinkable I'll be happy with that,

 

[Drunkula]

Ultimately as long as what we're producing is drinkable I'll be happy with that,

Absolutely. I used to be really obsessed with the numbers and I'm still really into them but I just don't worry about it any more and half the time I can't even be bothered getting the refractometer out of the case when it's right next to me. It takes a few brews to get to that state, though. If it's short going into the fermenter I'll just campden whatever extra water I need and sling it in. I do then adjust the figures in BeerSmith so I know the absolute efficiency.

When I started I was getting 79% but that was a lie because of losses at bottling and now I'm at a lie-free 73% plus.

I got increases in efficiency by recirculating manually with a jug so the wort was clearer and then was able to do a full size boil. That meant I could sparge more. Initially I was doing a 14 litre boil for a 23 litre batch. I was still more than happy with it all.

 

[Richard_H]

Are you using the lower temperature and then calculating the efficiency based on the ABV you get? If so that's not actually better efficiency but better fermentability and they're not the same.

Good question, my point which I should have been clearer with is that my longer and slower mashes give me a higher original gravity. As it happens I have also noticed that the final gravity tends to finish slightly lower than expected which had slipped my mind.

I remember reading that 63c is the ultimate temperature when mashing for sugar conversion which is what I try to aim for on my base malts.

 

[Jim Brewster]

In either case a bit more grain in the mash should make up for the lower gravity. Better to top up earlier on so the extra 2 litres in the mashing volume, although you don't want to have too much leftover wort at the end either so it might take some further trial and error

 

[An Ankoù]

As long as you're within a whisker or two of your figures, I wouldn't even bother to hit them all. Rather, decide which ones are important. For me it would be OG so with a recipe I haven't done before, I'd be inclined to brew a little short and then adjust the volume according to the measured OG of the cooled wort just before pitching. If you get 18.5 litres instead of 20, what the hell? Then adjust you recipe for next time.
It seems a little pointless obsessing over some of the figures when there are so many you can't measure: for example, bitterness. We accept the figures given by calculations based on the stated alpha acid content of a hop , blissfully unaware of how much that may have degraded in storage and transport even before it gets to us. Again, recipe gravities are expressed as Target OG and Expected FG based on the author"s experience with his or her equipment.
Focus on the OG and trade that off against volume or efficiency, would be my advice. And enjoy your brewing.

 

[Neil Whittaker]

On the water volume side of things....... I have a measuring jug, Wilko FV bucket, Brewzilla and Fermzilla that all have a volume scale on them. The first three all measured different. So I'd measured my strike water out in the wilko bucket, poured into the Brewzilla. This would be different to if I directly went tap to brewzilla and used it's scale.

See if you can weigh 1L, 10L, 20L of water and use it to calibrate all your equipment.

 

[Richard_H]

The dead space in the kettle also serves the purpose of letting the trub settle into the bottom of the kettle and not going into the fermenter. I use Brewers Friend but put in my own profile.
Whichever program you use can't be regarded as gospel, when it comes to efficiency, loss of liquor to grain and dead space.
You have to work that out by trial and error, work out your own efficiency and how much you are losing to grain absorption. The dead space may be 2.5 to 3 litres, two things you can do with the trub. 1) Discard it. 2) Pour the trub into a jug place in the fridge let everything settle out, decant the clear wort into a saucepan boil it and either put it into the fermenter or bottle it to be used as a starter.
https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/trub-seperation-why-and-how/

It had never even occurred to me to go for option 2, I will give that a go next time and see how much wort I can salvage to go back into the FV.

I had also been reading that during the boil discarding the foam should reduce the amount of hot break trub left in the kettle.

 

[foxy]

It had never even occurred to me to go for option 2, I will give that a go next time and see how much wort I can salvage to go back into the FV.

I had also been reading that during the boil discarding the foam should reduce the amount of hot break trub left in the kettle.

You can stand around the kettle discarding the foam, or just get some spirit conditioner from your local HBS, one tiny cap full dissipates the foam which will end up as trub.
I don't know if distilling spirits is legal in the UK, it isn't here yet you can buy a still and all the gear which goes with it as long as you don't make spirits.
Pretty similar to buying marijuana seeds, you can buy them but not plant them!
I don't know what system you have or if it is easy for you to raise the mash temperature, but it would be worthwhile mashing at 63 C for 1/2 an hour and at 69 C for another half hour. Efficiency will drop a couple of points but you will have a medium bodied beer instead of dry beers.