Beer still a little cloudy

[WM7793]

Hi, I have just sampled my first all grain ale last night, and the taste is certainly an improvement to the extract kits I have previously used. However it is still a little cloudy, after going through my proceedure you may be able to shine some light on where I can improve on my next batch.

The first batch was a (small) 20 pint, just to get to grips with the actual process of all grain brewing.

I blindly followed my routine of extract kits as it has worked for me previously: ie
Brew beer,
Wait a couple of days at end of ferment and check FG for stability
Bottle, onto a level teaspoon of sugar
Keep in warm place for 3/4 days
Move to garage (beer clear after 14 days)
Wait another 14 days or so before drinking

As I mentioned the beer would always clear during the period in the garage.

Now on reflection, there are a number of things I would do different on my next all grain batch which I would hope improve the clarity of the beer.

1 Leave beer in primary fermentor longer (up to two weeks for example) to allow yeast to fully do it's thing
2. Allow longer for beer to secondary ferment in a warmer place (two weeks)
3. Batch prime for carbonation

Any advice on the above would be useful.

There are also things I would like your advice on: (Whether they have any affect on the overall clarity of the beer or not)

1 I did not wait for the "hot break" to subside before adding hops and then timing the boil. Does this make a difference?


2. I added protoflac maybe a little early (30 mins from end of boil), again does this make any difference to the outcome?


3. After good advice from the forum members, I reduced my boiler deadspace from 5L to 0.5L using a 90 degree elbow and syphoning.
Now in doing this, am I bringing "dross" to the fermentor?, or again, does it matter?
(I am using a home made stainless steel hop strainer from a flexible water connector, would a copper pipe matrix be better?)

4. I forgot to let the trub settle after boiling for 90 minutes, does this affect the final clarity?

Please give me your thoughts and experience on this matter.

Best regards,
WM7793

 

[Underground Joe]

Cold crashing your beer before bottling helps. At this time of year you can leave it wrapped up securely in bin liners in a shed or a protected shady area.

 

[graysalchemy]

First of all was it crystal clear when you put it in the bottle?

Personally it sounds like you may have bottled too early.

I ferment until it is done then leave it a few more days raising the temp up to 21 so as the yeast can clean up (diacetyl rest).

Next I transfer into a secondary FV mainly to get it off the majority of the trub and into a clean sterile FV. Then I leave it to clear in a cold room or on a concrete floor for 7 days or until it is crystal clear.

Once clear it is ready for bottling. Firstly I transfer to a sterile bottling bucket, again getting it off any sediment. Then I batch prime adding 3-4g of sugar per Litre dissolved in a little boiling water and adding to the beer. Then I bottle. The beer is then left at 20c for a week and then 2-3 weeks in the cool. After this I try and leave it as long as possible but you can start drinking it. It should be crystal clear at this point.

As long as you secured a hot break in the boil (this is not the scum at the initial start of the boil, it occours through out the boil hencer the need for 90 a long boil)and a cold break on cooling it doesn't really matter if the cold break went in the FV or not as long as you get it of it, hence why i recommend using a secondary Fv.

 

[Ceejay]

I'd say 1 and 4 are definitely having an impact on your clarity. I say that, because I was doing exactly the same thing. I sought advise on the "hot break", re-read a few things and sorted it out.

With the hot break, you need to wait until nearly all the foam subsides and you have a rolling boil. After a short period of time, up to 15 minutes, you'll be able to see loads "bits" floating around, which are clumps of protein. You may need to turn your burner down/off to see it. Once you see the "bits", you've achieved hot break. Then you set your timer and add the 60 minute hop addition. It took me a while to figure this out. Here's a pic, if it helps:

Before hot break:



Hot break (boiler off):



And you definitely need to let it settle at the end of the boil. I stir whilst chilling, which chills it faster. Once down to pitching temp, I let it sit for a good 30 minutes whilst I sanitise the fermenter bits and do some cleaning up. All this means the wort comes out nice and bright into the fermenter (or a glass!):



Not saying you should copy what I'm doing, or that mine is the best way, as everyone's system is different, but I had the same problem as you, fixed it and now it's sorted :)

 

[Hawks]

Protofloc 30 mins from end is too early IMHO - IIRC the ideal time is 10 mins before end, or everything can just end up going back into solution. :thumb:

 

[Pinchy]

Did you add irish moss to the boil?

Also have you considered finings? Ive been using Wilkos beer finings and they seem to be working very well :thumb:

 

[jonnymorris]

Did you add irish moss to the boil?

Protofloc = Irish moss.

As for the hot-break... I was under the impression that this was more likely to occur towards the end of the 90mins rather than the start?

 

[graysalchemy]

Me too Johnny :thumb:

 

[Hawks]

As for the hot-break... I was under the impression that this was more likely to occur towards the end of the 90mins rather than the start?

I'm with you, I thought hot break would be secured in around 45 mins.

 

[graysalchemy]

I don't think there is a particular time hence you should boil to secure the hot break however long that may be. I know a 90 min boil for me always secures it. :thumb: :thumb:

 

[Ceejay]

From "how to brew":

"The wort will continue to foam until the protein clumps get heavy enough to sink back into the pot. You will see particles floating around in the wort. It may look like Egg Drop Soup. This is called the Hot break and may take 5-20 minutes to occur, depending on the amount of protein in your extract. Often the first hop addition triggers a great deal of foaming, especially if hop pellets are used. I recommend waiting until the Hot break occurs before doing your first Hop addition and timing the hour. The extra boiling time won't hurt."

 

[mike77]

What yeast are you using. The last several brews that I have done I have either used Nottingham or Ringwood. Both are fast fermenting and highly flocculant. Pretty much as soon as the beer ferments out it is bright clear.

As per points 3 and 4. I don't really let the boiler settle and bring a lot of trub into my fermenter but find it just settles out with the yeast.

 

[Aleman]

From "how to brew":

"The wort will continue to foam until the protein clumps get heavy enough to sink back into the pot. You will see particles floating around in the wort. It may look like Egg Drop Soup. This is called the Hot break and may take 5-20 minutes to occur, depending on the amount of protein in your extract. Often the first hop addition triggers a great deal of foaming, especially if hop pellets are used. I recommend waiting until the Hot break occurs before doing your first Hop addition and timing the hour. The extra boiling time won't hurt."

He's Wrong!! . . . it may happen like that with extract, but nowhere near it in all grain (and I've never seen it in extract either).

It takes a minimum of 60 minutes rolling boil before you should look for the hot break, and in my case it's nearer to 90 minutes

As I've said on this subject in the past

Boil a wort and during the boil take wineglass sized samples of wort every 15 minutes throughout the boil. Initially the samples are cloudy, but as the boil proceeds minute particles start to form . . . as time proceeds these particles get bigger and bigger and the wort clears, until they are about hatch head sized and there is no difference between successive samples. At this point you have achieved the 'Hot Break' and the wort should be visibly clear with more than a hint of sparkle.

 

[Ceejay]

Holy handgrenades! I feel like I did when I first discovered Santa doesn't exist.

Cool, so, would you recommend then, that we boil for 90 minutes as standard? I've only ever boiled for 60...

I can't believe I've been thinking that the whole time. Brewing really gets me PO'd sometimes!

 

[Aleman]

I would recommend that we boil to secure the hot break

The thing is that it does depend on the vigor of the boil, someone that boils hard will secure the hot break before someone that does not boil as vigorously. . . . Hence the need to test . . . Then when you know when it happens for your equipment that is your minimum boil time :thumb:

 

[Ceejay]

Cheers Aleman. I feel like a good re-read of some text books is in order. I seem to be pretty out of whack on a few things at the moment; though the beer always turns out pretty well. :hmm:

And you know what? I actually remember reading this a couple of years ago now:

"Just one thing . . . don't perpetuate the myth that the foam that forms on the surface of the wort before the boil is the hot break . . . . it isn't. The hot break occurs 60-90 minutes into the boil . . . . and just in case . . . . Palmer got it wrong!!!"

 

[Aleman]

Cheers Aleman. I feel like a good re-read of some text books is in order. I seem to be pretty out of whack on a few things at the moment; though the beer always turns out pretty well. :hmm:

That is the yardstick, a lot of the time it is tweaking things to make minor improvements to the beer quality.

If you are going back to text books, can I say that the third edition of How To Brew does not perpetuate John Palmers mistake in the online edition of the book .

Graham Wheelers book (Home brewing) which Predates JP by some years (and even Dave Lines Big Book Of Brewing) explain the hot break really well.

 

[Stone Cold]

allowing for hot break to form and hops to rest at the bottom is essential. best of luck with brew number 2

 

[nobyipa]

done lots o 60 min boils and they all had lots o unpackted matter in them
but the difference since doing 90mins is huge the crud and hop matter seems to be left behind more in the boiler
giving it a large stir at the end letting it rest for 15 mins o so to collect crud break etc in the centre of your boiler
also doing a secondary helps a bit more
:thumb:

 

[Jeltz]

Holy handgrenades! I feel like I did when I first discovered Santa doesn't exist.

:shock: Santa doesn't exist :shock: I thought I'd just been naughty for the last 30+ years