Beer engine with corny setup questions

[peebee]

I actually wrote up my brewery build here. But it is 4 years old and it has had a number of tweaks since. I'll update once the "HLT Reserve" is complete and working (I do not use the RIMS any more).

An up-to-date schematic goes:

Looks complicated, but covers everything. Feel free to mine the information to find anything that maybe useful to you.

I use floating extractors ("Cask Widge" floats) in place of the dip-tube in the Cornies. Made easily detachable for cleaning (they need it from time to time).

I do ferment in the dispensing keg (up to about SG1.045) so obviously have no bother with yeast sediment in Cornies.

My "secret weapon" for brewing perfect "cask" "Real Ale" is Chevallier barley malt. In fact it produces better "Real Ale" than you can buy in a Pub! Takes a little bit of practice to handle the stuff right, but the results are terrific (my opinion; some folk wont like it!). Documented my recent experiences with this malt here.



Flip, appears we've just been stuffed into Covid-19 lockdown again. Still, I have my order in for 25kg Chevallier barley malt. Tesco's Web site has crashed probably because of the sudden load. Looks like I'll be going hungry again, but I can still get plastered with all this home-brew!

 

[Ajdpilot]

I actually wrote up my brewery build here. But it is 4 years old and it has had a number of tweaks since. I'll update once the "HLT Reserve" is complete and working (I do not use the RIMS any more).

An up-to-date schematic goes:
View attachment 33433
Looks complicated, but covers everything. Feel free to mine the information to find anything that maybe useful to you.

I use floating extractors ("Cask Widge" floats) in place of the dip-tube in the Cornies. Made easily detachable for cleaning (they need it from time to time).

I do ferment in the dispensing keg (up to about SG1.045) so obviously have no bother with yeast sediment in Cornies.

My "secret weapon" for brewing perfect "cask" "Real Ale" is Chevallier barley malt. In fact it produces better "Real Ale" than you can buy in a Pub! Takes a little bit of practice to handle the stuff right, but the results are terrific (my opinion; some folk wont like it!). Documented my recent experiences with this malt here.



Flip, appears we've just been stuffed into Covid-19 lockdown again. Still, I have my order in for 25kg Chevallier barley malt. Tesco's Web site has crashed probably because of the sudden load. Looks like I'll be going hungry again, but I can still get plastered with all this home-brew!

Wow, thanks. Alot of helpful information there. Started reading your manual there. So far very interesting and detailed. Will have to finish that when in offshift I think

You might cover them later than where I am in your manual. But initial question that jumps to mind is: what process do you use for cleaning / sanitizing all that gear?
Always wondered how the large scale brewers do it...not like they can take it all to the bath and hose it down with the shower head!

When you say you ferment in the dispensing keg but have no bother with yeast in cornies, just wanted to check:
You do use cornis?
Have the regular post setup?
And rack straight to the keg from primary fermenter?

I'll probably have a ton more questions for you once I've finished reading your manual later. Lots of things I will take inspiration from there already

 

[peebee]

Really drifting off-topic now. Still, it's your thread and your choice!

When you say you ferment in the dispensing keg but have no bother with yeast in cornies, just wanted to check:
You do use cornis?
Have the regular post setup?
And rack straight to the keg from primary fermenter?

I do go from fermenter direct to keg, but use conical fermenters where this a normal step (commercially there might be a "conditioning tank" acting as an intermediary or "secondary" fermenter). Some folk go from primary fermenter (bucket) direct to keg anyway. But where I was saying "ferment in the dispensing keg" …

You've missed the important bit! There's no "racking" (I use 12V pumps only now anyway, so I was initially perplexed by "racking"!), the dispensing keg is the primary fermenter! I'm venturing into a keg only zone (no hand pumps), but try >this<. That should keep you in reading matter for a bit!


Cleaning: I'm still working on this (mostly laborious manual methods at moment). CIP (clean-in-place) with pumps (which need to be powerful) and rotating spray balls.

 

[Ajdpilot]

Really drifting off-topic now. Still, it's your thread and your choice!


I do go from fermenter direct to keg, but use conical fermenters where this a normal step (commercially there might be a "conditioning tank" acting as an intermediary or "secondary" fermenter). Some folk go from primary fermenter (bucket) direct to keg anyway. But where I was saying "ferment in the dispensing keg" …

You've missed the important bit! There's no "racking" (I use 12V pumps only now anyway, so I was initially perplexed by "racking"!), the dispensing keg is the primary fermenter! I'm venturing into a keg only zone (no hand pumps), but try >this<. That should keep you in reading matter for a bit!


Cleaning: I'm still working on this (mostly laborious manual methods at moment). CIP (clean-in-place) with pumps (which need to be powerful) and rotating spray balls.

Haha, it started as a few questions about beer engines, then it was obvious you are as obsessive as I am about getting the brew right and wanting to analyse every detail. So it's now turned into a picking your brain and learning as much as I can.

Thanks, I shall have a read. Plenty to keep me going for abit now.

Ohh, I see. I also use a conical fermenter, but transfer to keg using gravity and a hose on the take off tap. My priority in the near term is to get my post fermentation setup spot on...I'm also looking to get away from hand pumps along with buckets. Would prefer some built in setup where I can just open valves and turn on pumps along with decreasing the risk of oxygenation.
Once I have post sorted, I will then really focus on the boil and pre fermenting setup. But the thinking about all that is already happening.

If you do work out the cleaning, I'd be very interested. I'm hoping to do some sort of brewery tour and quiz them how they do it and try to take inspiration from that.

 

[Ajdpilot]

Really drifting off-topic now. Still, it's your thread and your choice!


I do go from fermenter direct to keg, but use conical fermenters where this a normal step (commercially there might be a "conditioning tank" acting as an intermediary or "secondary" fermenter). Some folk go from primary fermenter (bucket) direct to keg anyway. But where I was saying "ferment in the dispensing keg" …

You've missed the important bit! There's no "racking" (I use 12V pumps only now anyway, so I was initially perplexed by "racking"!), the dispensing keg is the primary fermenter! I'm venturing into a keg only zone (no hand pumps), but try >this<. That should keep you in reading matter for a bit!


Cleaning: I'm still working on this (mostly laborious manual methods at moment). CIP (clean-in-place) with pumps (which need to be powerful) and rotating spray balls.

I finished reading your manual, lots of good stuff in there. Will most likely take from that in the future when I hopefully create my own brewery.

I'm assuming you don't have any issue with the pumps aerating your beer (particularly when pumping from dispensing keg to corny keg?)
I'm guessing you also open the lid or vent somehow to stop any glugging?

On another note, I'm looking at getting a floating widge. Not sure why I havent got one up until now. I used to use one on my old plastic king keg, but when I moved over to cornies, I just used the standard tube setup.
Do you know if the silicone tube that is supplied with most of the stainless ball float types fit ok?
Just wondering if I'm going to need a new type of post setup too

 

[peebee]

… I'm assuming you don't have any issue with the pumps aerating your beer (particularly when pumping from dispensing keg to corny keg?)
I'm guessing you also open the lid or vent somehow to stop any glugging? …

Hum. I'm still misleading you on that "side" subject?

The dispensing keg is the fermenter. The dispensing keg is a Corny. There is no transfer after moving the beer from boiler to dispensing keg, so certainly no "glugging". It was a fast output technique and not one I'd use for "general" brewing; for that I back to more "normal" practices.

As for flexible dip-tubes: I don't like cross-linking forums, but to avoid writing this stuff again --- Floating dip tube for corny - Page 3 - Home Brew Forum. Moving over to 6mm ID silicon tubing might (I've not tried it) avoid the need to use the "Increaser" fittings (5mm milk hose - 10mm OD - is very difficult to fit, and does need to be tailored to the right length or it jams on the keg sides). The hose clips are stainless steel BTW.

 

[Ajdpilot]

Hum. I'm still misleading you on that "side" subject?

The dispensing keg is the fermenter. The dispensing keg is a Corny. There is no transfer after moving the beer from boiler to dispensing keg, so certainly no "glugging". It was a fast output technique and not one I'd use for "general" brewing; for that I back to more "normal" practices.

As for flexible dip-tubes: I don't like cross-linking forums, but to avoid writing this stuff again --- Floating dip tube for corny - Page 3 - Home Brew Forum. Moving over to 6mm ID silicon tubing might (I've not tried it) avoid the need to use the "Increaser" fittings (5mm milk hose - 10mm OD - is very difficult to fit, and does need to be tailored to the right length or it jams on the keg sides). The hose clips are stainless steel BTW.

Sorry, that was my bad. I was meaning kettle to keg. Do you have any problems with the pumps aerating?

Thanks for the float info. Again, very helpful

 

[Ajdpilot]

Sorry, that was my bad. I was meaning kettle to keg. Do you have any problems with the pumps aerating?

Thanks for the float info. Again, very helpful

Ignore that, clearly havent had enough coffee yet.

I mean when your brewing a general beer and do transfer from a fermenter to a keg (or do you never do that anymore?)
I'm interested in the use of a pump to transfer and thinking how it affects the beer. I'm assuming the top of the fermenter will need to be open to air to stop a vacuum or glugging, but also wondering if the rotating motion of a pump causes any sort of aeration within the beer?

 

[peebee]

Ignore that, clearly havent had enough coffee yet.

I mean when your brewing a general beer and do transfer from a fermenter to a keg (or do you never do that anymore?)
I'm interested in the use of a pump to transfer and thinking how it affects the beer. I'm assuming the top of the fermenter will need to be open to air to stop a vacuum or glugging [Yes], but also wondering if the rotating motion of a pump causes any sort of aeration within the beer? [No, where would the air come from?]

 

[private4587]

Hi Peebee i have just fitted the type of regulator shown on the left (the 3/4-2psi one) when connected to my modified KK the gauge doesn't show much above 1psi. The keg is quite low on product would this be the reason for not attaining the 2psi. I would have thought that it should reach this has i have set it to max on the output with an input of approx 40psi

Thank you. It was written to be none too self-opinionated and has the input (peer review?) of many (including Graham Wheeler, who would not like to be linked with if he was still with us, but I always like to think his "restrained" abusiveness aimed at the developing article did suggest maybe I was on the right track?).

As for "nozzles: I think there is only two basic designs, short as preferred down south, and long or "swan-neck" as preferred up north. I switched to short, but being a from northern manufacturer (Angram) they haven't completely let go of the swan-neck:
View attachment 33345
"Sparklers" should only be attached to swan-necks so they can be inserted beneath the surface of served beer. As such they do not aerate the beer, they only knock out CO2 to create head. Ironically it's the short type (no sparkler) that introduces most air because the beer pours a distance into the glass.

You must not have a fixed opinion of sparklers. Some beers they work for and create fine heads, some beers are trashed by them with flavour and body vanishing. If using a sparkler, always test first! Always repeat the test every few days because beers change. I never use sparklers but always have good heads, though my pumps do have solenoid valves fitted (to preserve the beer in the pump, which would otherwise spoil) and they create a tight restriction that might be knocking out CO2?

Maintaining such low CO2 "top pressure" is very difficult because commonly used regulators simply will not hold to low pressures (you are doing well to get them to 10PSI). I advocate these:
View attachment 33346
Look the same? The left-hand one (even BES sell them) regulate 50 - 150mb (about 3/4 - 2PSI). They are quite adequate. The right-hand one (rare, but available from some chicken and game bird breeders) regulate 20 - 300mb and might be useful at times (I haven't started using mine)? Note no despicable "POL" attachments, all BSP.

(EDIT: I always forget to add: Those regulators must be "secondary", or second down the line, because they only handle 1-16BAR input: DO NOT connect them directly to a gas cylinder.)

 

[peebee]

Hi Peebee i have just fitted the type of regulator shown on the left (the 3/4-2psi one) when connected to my modified KK the gauge doesn't show much above 1psi. The keg is quite low on product would this be the reason for not attaining the 2psi. I would have thought that it should reach this has i have set it to max on the output with an input of approx 40psi

If you want a pressure gauge to measure 2 PSI or less then I doubt you can afford it - or you wont want to pay that kind of money for a bit of beer serving bling. I've got a digital gauge that is supposed to measure 1PSI fairly accurately, to be honest I haven't tried.

Trust the regulator. They are pretty reliable, designed principally for controlling explosive gases! (Propane/Butane). When the regulator isn't attached to a keg you can hear the CO2 coming through. If output is just attached to a plain tube, you can stop the gas coming out by putting the tube in your mouth and blowing (you can easily blow 2PSI, 150mbar, into a small diameter pipe; best if you just take my word for it! Or just stick your finger over the end of the tube to stop the flow.).

Managing these very low pressures is why I recommend those low cost LPG regulators. It's nearly impossible otherwise.

40PSI, near enough 3BAR, is ample input pressure for the regulator, they can handle up to 16BAR.

 

[peebee]

Ignore that, clearly havent had enough coffee yet.

I mean when your brewing a general beer and do transfer from a fermenter to a keg (or do you never do that anymore?)
I'm interested in the use of a pump to transfer and thinking how it affects the beer. I'm assuming the top of the fermenter will need to be open to air to stop a vacuum or glugging, but also wondering if the rotating motion of a pump causes any sort of aeration within the beer?

As the thread has been woken up and I noticed your post: I'm using diaphragm pumps for beer transfer now (not Chinese cheapo ones; Seaflo ones that have food safe diaphragm materials like >these<). They don't thrash the beer like impeller pump designs (but sound scary!).

You could use those LPG regulators to maintain 1PSI of CO2 pressure for oxygen-free transfers, but I haven't been bother to try.

 

[private4587]

If you want a pressure gauge to measure 2 PSI or less then I doubt you can afford it - or you wont want to pay that kind of money for a bit of beer serving bling. I've got a digital gauge that is supposed to measure 1PSI fairly accurately, to be honest I haven't tried.

Trust the regulator. They are pretty reliable, designed principally for controlling explosive gases! (Propane/Butane). When the regulator isn't attached to a keg you can hear the CO2 coming through. If output is just attached to a plain tube, you can stop the gas coming out by putting the tube in your mouth and blowing (you can easily blow 2PSI, 150mbar, into a small diameter pipe; best if you just take my word for it! Or just stick your finger over the end of the tube to stop the flow.).

Managing these very low pressures is why I recommend those low cost LPG regulators. It's nearly impossible otherwise.

40PSI, near enough 3BAR, is ample input pressure for the regulator, they can handle up to 16BAR.

Many thanks there is gas going into keg has if I depress the internal of connection post I can hear and feel gas escaping

 

[Vandalay]

If you want a pressure gauge to measure 2 PSI or less then I doubt you can afford it - or you wont want to pay that kind of money for a bit of beer serving bling. I've got a digital gauge that is supposed to measure 1PSI fairly accurately, to be honest I haven't tried.

Trust the regulator. They are pretty reliable, designed principally for controlling explosive gases! (Propane/Butane). When the regulator isn't attached to a keg you can hear the CO2 coming through. If output is just attached to a plain tube, you can stop the gas coming out by putting the tube in your mouth and blowing (you can easily blow 2PSI, 150mbar, into a small diameter pipe; best if you just take my word for it! Or just stick your finger over the end of the tube to stop the flow.).

Managing these very low pressures is why I recommend those low cost LPG regulators. It's nearly impossible otherwise.

40PSI, near enough 3BAR, is ample input pressure for the regulator, they can handle up to 16BAR.

1 psi = 51.7149 mmHg, you can use a blood pressure monitor gauge to measure really low pressures at an affordable prize.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/311594821433?hash=item488c7fa739:g:ipYAAOxyjP1R4cGs

I have 0.75kg/cm2 on primary and 1psi after the propane regulator.

 

[peebee]

1 psi = 51.7149 mmHg, you can use a blood pressure monitor gauge to measure really low pressures at an affordable prize. ...

Brilliant! I've puzzled where to get low cost low pressure gauge from for ages. You do have to get used to another kooky scale (mmHg) but no problem when 50mmHg is near enough 1PSI.

You can get something like it in the UK (Aneroid BP Gauge). £14 delivered (the postage on the US one linked is prohibitive in UK). I just need a panel-mount version and some sort of over-pressure protection device (it wont be long before the gauge gets connected to an over-pressured 10PSI+ keg).

 

[The Furnace Green Brewer]

I am slowly given up on bottling completely now since I bought and refurbed my beer pump/engine.

All my brews go into 10 litre bags, in turn then go into boxes. No need for kegs, corny kegs etc etc, no faffing venting them etc.
The bags inflate slightly with Co2 in the first couple of weeks of conditioning. No air gets back into the bag during draw off, they collapse under vacuum. Ale always has a head of Co2 around it.
This is without any priming sugar for extra carbonation.
This is vented off by either removing the tap slightly or opening the tap and lightly pressing to let the excess Co2 out. I have 8 X boxes stored now plus one one the tap for drinking.
Taste, appearance is as good as anything that I have had in a pub. (Recipe, brewing skill dependent). Will probably never go back to bottles or any other method other than bags in boxes.
I use a sparkler nozzle,if not i will not get a head or a decent looking pint out of the pump.

Not sure about microbe build up? New one on me. Hygiene is the same process as any other food hygiene in your kitchen. Clean it!
My pump stays on for maybe a week at a time before rinsing through, then with line cleaner every 4 weeks.
I remove the sparkler every night and clean the swan neck with water and sanitiser..... Never had microbe problems.

The pump I have has a non return valve built in and the bag connector has a shutoff valve when removed from the box. I have had no need for inline valves etc.

Good luck

Hi Mavroz, Very interesting does the ale keep in the bags ? I am using corny kegs, with a beer engine, but fed up with the C02 and the kegs in general, so where do you get your bags from?

Cheers

FGB

 

[MashBag]

I am also interested in this, but Tbh I think @Mavroz posted that 4 years ago, and we haven't seen much of him recently.

My bag connector should be here soon

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Mentioned in another thread can last a few weeks if kept cool.
Keeping condition in the beer is the balancing act.

 

[MashBag]

I am also interested in this, but Tbh I think @Mavroz posted that 4 years ago, and we haven't seen much of him recently.

My bag connector should be here soon

It had just landed. Very nice. Good fit. Good design. Next brew goes in bags defo

 

[The Furnace Green Brewer]

It had just landed. Very nice. Good fit. Good design. Next brew goes in bags defo

Great, I hope it goes well , please let me know how it goes , I have had a look at bags on Love brewing which are just under £20 each I am keen to drop the C02 cheers