Badger: Cranborne Poacher & using jam

[UKSkydiver]

Hi all
Recently tried and very much enjoyed this beer.

I'm looking to try and replicate and I have found couple of copy recipes here and there, plus I have some inside info from the brewers themselves.

I bought some plum essence which I dropped in some dark malty beer and whilst it tasted ok, it seemed a tad bitter and artificial.

I was drinking a McEwan's Champion last night and decided to try adding a teaspoon of Mrs UKS's plum and sloe gin compote (runny jam).

My goodness it was good.

I also think I need to add licquorice in the form of star anise.

So I'm looking for your thoughts on adding these to the brew, specifically;

- Can I just use the compote as is? How much for an approximare 12 litre brew?
- Do I need to worry about adding pectolase?
- Should I be adding at the ferment stage? Possibly after the first 3-5 days? Something else?
- Bearing in mind I would be adding more sugar, how many points is this likely to add and therefore I guess I would need to reduce the equivalent for the wort.
- How much star anise to add for an approximare 12 litre brew?
- And my research leads me to think that I would be adding it at about 15 mins from end of boil.

Anything else I've missed - or even "don't bother mate" would be much apreciated

Cheers all.

 

[matt76]

Hey @UKSkydiver -

Short answer is I don't know either - but would you mind sharing some of the links etc you've found already, and what you learn as you go as this is one I've looked into in the past...

I'm sure I read something somewhere (unsubstantiated!) about it having damson, maybe some other references to dandelion & burdock too...

I've seen some stuff on here about some folks brewing with marmalade - maybe look into that as presumably jam would be similar?

I'd have thought you'd treat jam like fruit and add it at secondary - but that's just a guess...

On the other hand I know pilgrimhudd has added treacle (I think) near the end of the boil in his treacle beer.... so who knows!

One other suggestion I've picked up from Drew and Denny on Experimental Brewing - best way to figure out"how much" is simply to try adding small amounts of what you want to a glass of finished beer and work out out from there.

Good luck, I'd be very interested to hear what you figure out

 

[UKSkydiver]

Hi Matt
These are the recipes I've found so far:

https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/myrecipe_dc/recview.php?rid=5268https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/myrecipe_dc/recview.php?rid=5285
The main differences being amount of hops (although the IBUs don't change) and the addition of 209g of star anise. Now I think that's incorrect. I have some here and a good handfull is about 15g. So 209g that would be 14 good handfuls. And it's pretty pungent stuff.

There are some more ideas on this forum here:

Badger Poachers Choice clone - but one of the posters says he wouldn't brew it the same way, but no suggestions on what changes he'd make.

And this this one which doensn't give any definitive answers and then goes on to talk about adding Vimto:

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=28695
As you suggest, I've already tried adding our plum and sloe compote to my beer. A slightly more scientific process suggests that it needs about 1.5 teaspoons of compote in 330ml. One teaspoon is 4.3g which all works out to ~19.5g (ml) / litre. But I'm not sure how that would translate to adding in the fermenter. I suspect more might be needed, and it would also add to the ABV.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

As you suggest, I've already tried adding our plum and sloe compote to my beer. A slightly more scientific process suggests that it needs about 1.5 teaspoons of compote in 330ml. One teaspoon is 4.3g which all works out to ~19.5g (ml) / litre. But I'm not sure how that would translate to adding in the fermenter. I suspect more might be needed, and it would also add to the ABV.

As a random guess, I'd start with 50% more and then see how you go. Commercial jams are around 2/3 sugar, so if you were adding 30g/l that would be 20g/l of sugar, or 400g in 20 litres. So it might bump your gravity/ABV up by 10% or so.

You might want to have a look around for recipes for Titanic Plum Porter, I imagine some homebrewers will have tried cloning it with jam.

 

[An Ankoù]

It seems your not the first to attempt this one. It seems there may have been a name change.
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/badger-poachers-choice-clone.52221/page-2

 

[Redwulf]

I did the GH Christmas Ale with 11g Star Anise and the aniseed is a notable characteristic of the brew, I imagine 209g might be a tad overpowering.

 

[UKSkydiver]

I did the GH Christmas Ale with 11g Star Anise and the aniseed is a notable characteristic of the brew, I imagine 209g might be a tad overpowering.

Cheers. Was that a 'standard' 20-23 litre brew?
I'm thinking 4-7g for an 11-12 litre brew would be adequate.
Oh - and when did you add it? 15 min boil?

 

[Redwulf]

Yup I was aiming but I think I ended up with 21-22 litres in FV

The recipe said 10g Star Anise the last 10 mins. The packet had 11g so I threw it all in as the Missus gets uppity then I leave little bits of stuff in packets and jars.

 

[UKSkydiver]

Quick update to this

Brewday info here.

Brewed this on Sunday, just like any other brew, except added 3g star anise.

Today I have added 100ml/100ml/200g mixture (see brewday post) plus another 3g star anise and given it a mix.

It looks to have added about 10 gravity points (~1% abv?) and yeast activity has started again

 

[matt76]

@UKSkydiver I've been meaning to mention this and it just popped back into head.....

Not sure what the status is with this experiment??? (report back!)

Anyway, I was reading Terry Foster's Porter & Stouts book recently and kept mentioning brown malt adding a hint of liquorice. Now I do use Brown Malt (about 10%) in my London Porter and there's certainly a suggestion of liquorice there, though whether it's actually down to the Brown Malt I coultn't say for sure.

I've had quite a few Cranbourne Poachers/Poachers Choice in the past and it's certainly got some liquorice about it (it also reminds me a bit of dandelion & burdock actually, and I've also heard damson mentioned elsewhere). I don't think it's necessarily daft to try adding liquorice or star anise to get that flavour, but as I recall it's quite a dark beer so I could see Brown Malt working too, rather than (or maybe in addition to?) the black & chocolate malt you went with.

Just an idea, food for thought, feel free to kick it about as you see fit

 

[UKSkydiver]

Tried the first one of these at the weekend.

I will try to be constructive.

It looks like sludge and tastes llike turd.

OK - maybe not turd, but not great.

It has a pretty awful whiff of really pungent star anise. I think I overdid it either by putting the second lot of star anise in and / or leaving it in the FV (which I then fished out as it was getting a bit strong at the time)

Bizarrely, when I brushed my teeth this morning, I seemed to get something similar from the toothpaste; like mint / cloves. Not really sure.

I'm certainly not getting any plum / sweetness from this abomination.

The sludge 'colour / haze' migt be the pectin? I just threw some of the wife's plum compote in, no clearing agent / pectolase?

I'm glad I only dd a quarter batch, something in the region of 6 litres.

Frankly, bloody awful. It might float somebody's boat as a Christmas spiced something or other, but certianly nowhere near a Poacher.

 

[DarrenUK]

Love poachers choice.... That was the best beer.
Definitely got star enise in there but would boil that off separately and add the water from it to the fermentation rather than dump the spice itself in the fermentation bucket.
Couldn't even guess what else was in there other than that.... Been a while since I had one but definitely going to explore a poachers choice clone.

 

[UKSkydiver]

Found a load of these still in the "conditioning cupboard'. Thought I'd stick a couple in the fridge for sh!ts and giggles.

I have tried the odd one over the intervening couple of years.... not pretty.

So..... how are they now, bearing in mind we are now two years on?

Well, the overwhelming stench of rancid star anise has abated somewhat. It's way less in your face, but still quite 'forward'.

Mrs UKS said 'spearmint' so bearing in mind my previous comment about toothpaste, we're in that ball park.

Maybe not surprisingly, it's cleared a little, not as sludgy and you can discern some light through it.

Carbonation was OK... a bit harsh. I would describe as big bubbles.

The taste has mellowed a lot. It's still in the 'winter spiced ale' bracket, but as I sit here supping, the 330ml serving is almost done.... so maybe its not that bad..... maybe.

I'm not the greatest brewer, but given I was only about 18 months into my brewing journey, I have learned that I probably bit off a bit more than I could chew with this one.

I have learned that star anise is really strong and should be used in moderation.

I've also learned that even the most horrendous abomination can redeem itself given some time, although whether it's worth hanging on that long or not is up for debate.

Cheers all...

 

[Redwulf]

Christ this only seems like yesterday. I think I am most amazed by you having kept some long around long enough to try it 2 years later. I am ruthless with bad batches and 66 them at the earliest opportunity.

Shine on and keep brewing..

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Well, the overwhelming stench of rancid star anise has abated somewhat. It's way less in your face, but still quite 'forward'.

Just as a thought: the phenolics in star anise react with the sulphur in onions to give really nice, Maillard-y kinds of flavours that enhance meat - Heston Blumenthal is a big fan of using it with onions in meat dishes :
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2005/jun/11/foodanddrink.shopping4
It may be doubling down even further, but it might work as a liquor for a beef and onion stew, or bolognese or something?

 

[UKSkydiver]

It may be doubling down even further, but it might work as a liquor for a beef and onion stew, or bolognese or something?

I will update Mrs UKS - that'll please her!