Back on the brewing wagon! XX Bitter

[serum]

Work has got in the way of brewing lately but with things getting quiet for January I managed a brewday this week.

I wanted something similar to De Ranke XX Bitter which is a Belgian blond with tons of bitterness as the name suggests. I took some advice about the hops and yeast from an article about them and I know it's 100% Pilsner malt. Mine should be a bit stronger and I also went all malt with mine which may or may not be correct. I had 6kg so thought I might as well just throw it all in. Similar with the hops as I'm now a few IBU above the actual recipe. Being Belgian they probably had some white sugar but I think it'll be decent anyway and maybe add a bit of a French touch to it.

De Ranke apparently uses Safbrew T-58 which makes this the first time I've used dried yeast in a few years! From what I remember I've only done it on one other occasion since I went all grain 3 years ago. One thing I want to test out is whether my yeast starters have been causing oxidation in my beer because I've noticed it a little and it seems to be the main flaw. It's not completely ruining them but they'd be a lot better without it and have more of a fresh vibrant taste.

Recipe for 20L batch:

Mash:
6kg Dingemans Pilsner
Mash in at 40C
15 mins @ 58C
15 mins @ 62C
30 mins @ 66C
15 mins @ 70C
10 mins @ 78C

90 min boil
65g Brewers Gold @ 60 mins (62 IBU)
Protafloc @ 15 mins
50g Hallertau Mittelfrueh @ 5 mins (5 IBU)

Fermented with 2 sachets of T-58 at 18C ramping up to 21 after 3 days.

OG: 1.064
IBU: 67
Beersmith says the final FG should be 1.015 but I think it should be lower than that.

I made it yesterday afternoon and the airlock was already bubbling by the evening making this the fastest start I've had with dried yeast.

 

[strange-steve]

Good to see you back in the game mate. I was in Brussels at the weekend and saw that XX Bitter in a few places but never got round to trying it unfortunately. The T-58 is surprising though.

 

[peebee]

My last brew with T-58 was done within 3 days. I had it down to ramp up to 21C after 3 days but there didn't seem much point. It was SG74 and had a FG of 20, so perhaps I should have ramped it up? Or you are being optimistic getting yours below 1.015? Whatever, you might consider ramping up the temperature a bit earlier.

I found T-58 quite estery (which was expected and welcome), but after 2-3 months the esters were still quite muddled (in-your-face). It was over a year later that the flavours mingled and the beer peaked, unfortunately impatience ensured there was very little left by then.

 

[Brew_DD2]

De Ranke XX Bitter is an absolute classic imo. I may have to have a go at this one.

 

[serum]

Peebee, what did you make and how many sachets did you use? I've tried it in a clone of pannepot which I made with my brother and it was alright. I think we used 3 sachets for that as it was very strong.

Ive heard people say this takes time to come good. Hopefully the pitching rate will make the esters back off a bit.

 

[peebee]

Peebee, what did you make ...

Sorry, the new Web site isn't letting me make proper a reply. I come back to this later after I've stuck back some of the hair I've torn out.

 

[peebee]

... Ive heard people say this takes time to come good. Hopefully the pitching rate will make the esters back off a bit.

But the estery nature of T-58 is a reason for using it? Use a less dramatic yeast or have plenty of patience - patience is rewarded (eventually). I used T-58 the year before (2015 - blimey) but I can see from my logs I didn't employ patience at all with that one and there's lots of comments about "excessively sweet flavours".

Anyway, last brew I used it, two packets but in a 45L batch. I was doing this http://www.castlemalting.com/CastleMaltingBeerRecipes.asp?Command=RecipeViewHtml&RecipeID=10. Let's see if I can add details to that now, but I'll put it in a separate post...

(Nope, things aren't right yet - thought I'd lost this post but looks like I'm getting a second chance to post it).

 

[peebee]

Right, I'm trying to figure a work around to the Web site hic-cups? Might work?

The Castle Maltings recipe was modified to make SGs and IBUs match the values they document, this is normal for these recipes (some are worse than others). I'm using Warminster malt because I have extraction issues with Castle Maltings stuff. Hops have changed because that is what I had. Screen snips are of my log in Beersmith. I fixed up my temperature control better after this escapade! The temperature plunges at the end as it get "lagered". This is a 45L batch.

(It's posted! Phew, that was hard work!).

 

[strange-steve]

Btw I have another beer for you to critique mate, you still at the same address?

 

[serum]

Btw I have another beer for you to critique mate, you still at the same address?

Yes still the same one. Send me your new one too and I'll send some your way. A few of my older ones have come good.

 

[serum]

I hear what you're saying but Xx bitter isn't massively estery. Going to see how far it goes and may add something to dry it out if I need to. I saw another person making the same beer and said theirs ended too sweet. Maybe the big pitch will help it get down but maybe not.

The beer isn't far from a saison so a bit of saison yeast should finish it nicely if it's too sweet.

I might give it a reading later tonight as it's stopped bubbling.

 

[serum]

It's down to 1.020 after just under a week and after taking the sample it seems to have started bubbling again. There was definitely still a ton of yeast in suspension but it tasted alright from the sample jar.

I re-read an article with tips from the brewer. He says they keep it in secondary at 15C for an extra 4 weeks during which time the yeast goes far lower than it would normally but I don't have a figure for exactly how dry. I only know what the beer tastes like. I'll probably just leave it in primary for around 3 weeks and see how it goes.

Here's the article if anyone's interested:

http://www.belgiansmaak.com/xx-bitter-brouwerij-de-ranke/

Looking at it more, the yeast could actually be S-33 as it says he chose a low ester yeast but a lot of people swear it's T-58. You never know with internet chat though!

 

[peebee]

... the yeast could actually be S-33 as it says he chose a low ester yeast but a lot of people swear it's T-58. ...

S-33 has made me some very enjoyable beers - English style old ales as well as Belgium styles. It isn't a Belgium strain - if you read the description it only says "good for Belgium styles" which should be good enough. It may well get down lower than T-58, but I found it would time and again "pause" at 1.018-20 and get going again 2-3 months later! Perhaps rousing it would encourage it a bit more? I got persuaded by a liquid yeast for an old ale this season and it has not turned out as good (as far as cloning is concerned) as using dried S-33 (used WLP002 yeast, OG1.064, FG1.013, 55IBU, beer a Fuller's 1845 clone). It is nowhere near as estery as T-58.

 

[Sadfield]

It's down to 1.020 after just under a week and after taking the sample it seems to have started bubbling again. There was definitely still a ton of yeast in suspension but it tasted alright from the sample jar.

I re-read an article with tips from the brewer. He says they keep it in secondary at 15C for an extra 4 weeks during which time the yeast goes far lower than it would normally but I don't have a figure for exactly how dry. I only know what the beer tastes like. I'll probably just leave it in primary for around 3 weeks and see how it goes.

Here's the article if anyone's interested:

http://www.belgiansmaak.com/xx-bitter-brouwerij-de-ranke/

Looking at it more, the yeast could actually be S-33 as it says he chose a low ester yeast but a lot of people swear it's T-58. You never know with internet chat though!

I'd be a little more inclined to think it was Safale Abbaye (now called Safale BE256), neutral, high attenuating and very flocculent.

I once brewed an XX Bitter inspired beer using Liberty hops and the Rochefort strain from WYEAST, which came out remarkably similar. It is reported that it is quite common for Belgian breweries to use each others yeast, I wonder if they sourced something similar to Rodenbach, but without the bacterial contamination.

Great article that. Had the good fortune to have attended Meet the Brewer events with both Nino from De Ranke and Yvan De Beats. Both really knowledgeable and passionate about Belgian brewing, yet with a modern, global focus.

 

[serum]

I'd be a little more inclined to think it was Safale Abbaye (now called Safale BE256), neutral, high attenuating and very flocculent.

I once brewed an XX Bitter inspired beer using Liberty hops and the Rochefort strain from WYEAST, which came out remarkably similar. It is reported that it is quite common for Belgian breweries to use each others yeast, I wonder if they sourced something similar to Rodenbach, but without the bacterial contamination.

Great article that. Had the good fortune to have attended Meet the Brewer events with both Nino from De Ranke and Yvan De Beats. Both really knowledgeable and passionate about Belgian brewing, yet with a modern, global focus.

Yes that's possible. Another thing to try if I fancy doing this one again.

I replaced the blowoff tube with a normal sized air lock yesterday and have ramped temp up to 21 over a few days. It's still bubbling away so hopefully I'll get it down a few more points. It's only just a week old now so plenty of time. I think I can safely leave it on the gunk for another few weeks if need be.

 

[peebee]

Yes that's possible. Another thing to try if I fancy doing this one again.

I replaced the blowoff tube with a normal sized air lock yesterday and have ramped temp up to 21 over a few days. It's still bubbling away so hopefully I'll get it down a few more points. It's only just a week old now so plenty of time. I think I can safely leave it on the gunk for another few weeks if need be.

Safale Abbaye, now there's a yeast. You wont have to replace the blow-off tube, it'll do that for you though you may have to search around the room to find where it blew-off to (you'll find it searching for whatever else was insecure on the fermenter and blew-off). But unlike the other yeasts I profiled above it really is high attenuating (the only time I used it it went from 1.061 to 1.006 in less than 48 hours). Needs temperature control which I didn't have at the time and temperature climbed very quickly from 18C to 24C. I'll disagree with Sadfield: It's not neutral - It fights its own battles and takes no prisoners. Stinks the entire neighbourhood out while about it. My notes reported quite an alcoholic taste in the finished beer so I guess it still needs long maturation to come right.

Interesting though. :unsure:

 

[Sadfield]

Yes, sorry my post wasn't very clear.

Neutral probably wasn't the best descriptor. Clean for a Belgian yeast maybe more correct. BE256 Abbaye is still very Belgian in character, as is XX Bitter. Looking at the spec sheets for each yeast, BE256 has the lowest ester production values for a 20c fermentation (20ppm), slightly lower than S33 (27ppm) and almost half that of T58 (36ppm).

 

[serum]

Safale Abbaye, now there's a yeast. You wont have to replace the blow-off tube, it'll do that for you though you may have to search around the room to find where it blew-off to (you'll find it searching for whatever else was insecure on the fermenter and blew-off). But unlike the other yeasts I profiled above it really is high attenuating (the only time I used it it went from 1.061 to 1.006 in less than 48 hours). Needs temperature control which I didn't have at the time and temperature climbed very quickly from 18C to 24C. I'll disagree with Sadfield: It's not neutral - It fights its own battles and takes no prisoners. Stinks the entire neighbourhood out while about it. My notes reported quite an alcoholic taste in the finished beer so I guess it still needs long maturation to come right.

Interesting though. :unsure:

That's interesting. I've got good temp control now so I could keep that down within the range.

I think the temperature is probably to blame for the smell, quick fermentation and the alcohol taste though. I've had this a few times with different yeasts, usually European ones where my DIY temperature control failed me. I've found it's pretty easy for a 20L batch to rise 6-7C in the first few days if not kept in check and that's enough to get it out of the recommended range unless it's a yeast witha really wide range of recommended temps.

Unless it's a really strong beer you shouldn't need months and months for a beer to come good if it's brewed well. I've still got a fair way to go but the better my process, the quicker the beers are ready.

 

[peebee]

Yes, sorry my post wasn't very clear.

Neutral probably wasn't the best descriptor. ...

I wasn't really disagreeing with you, more like twisting your words to underline a very twisted yeast. :mad1:

 

[serum]

It's at 1.013 now after 13 days. I think I'll leave it another week or so because it's still very cloudy so there must be plenty of yeast in suspension. Maybe it'll get down further.

At a guess I reckon the original starts at about 1.054 and ends at around 1.008 to get 6% but mine is ten points higher on OG so I'm wondering how low I can reasonably get it. If I can get a few more points down then it won't be too stodgy. I think if I chuck saison yeast in it might take it too low and end up with a bit of a beastly ABV compared to what it's meant to be.

Am I the only person who sets out to make something reasonably easy to drink and ends up with a 7 percenter?