I’m happy clappy when my team put three past Rangers, old firm games really test my Christianity 
Are you religious?
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An Ankoù
Landlord.
Many religions have a tradition of mysticism, which is usually achieved by severe asceticism. Others have practices akin to shamenism. We can never know that world as it really is, only as we perceive it. I think the writers of The Matrix stole that from Kant.
Those were my points, anyway.
My apologies, for not making myself clear. I am sure John son of Zebedee could be referred to as "the beloved disciple". It is just that John the Apostle is not John the evangelist. There are no eye-witness accounts. Mark the gospel is only once removed from an eye-witness, as its assumed author was a disciple of first Paul, then more importantly, Peter.
strange-steve
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Doesn't the writer claim to be both the beloved disciple and a witness in the last chapter? I suppose though if you don't believe what's written it doesn't really matter who wrote it.
I discovered that the more I found out about the history of the early Christian church, the less inclined I was to believe any specific claim made in its surviving scriptures. The real facts may have been lost, as they did not fit the truth, as tends to happen with religions.
strange-steve
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Well I certainly don't blame you for that. The history of religion, especially Christian religions, is one of lies, greed, persecution, deception, and violence.
So true...
An Ankoù
Landlord.
Fair comment, but while the claims made, particularly in the "afterthought" chapter 21 might be open to scrutiny. The writer does sort of "sign off his work" even if he does so in the third person. He pretty much identifies with the apostle whom Jesus loved ie, Jesus' favourite, and while Ephesus is a good way from Jerusalem, he has an intimate knowledge of the customs and mores of the people there and of the events he recounts. What gloss he puts on those events is again open to scrutiny. The question for me is why did he write so late, and having left it late, why did he write at all. I wonder, too, if he had access to the earlier, so called "synoptic" Gospels. At least we know why Luke wrote because he tells us in his openening to Theophilus.
Never expected to be discussing the authorship of John's Gospel in a homebrew forum. Not a bad thing. Haven't read it for over 20 years, I suppose I'd better blow off the dust and give it a bit of a staring at.
Dutto
Landlord.
Think about it.
You are a small tribe of people who are liable to fragment and run away at the first sign of trouble. Alone, everyone is vulnerable, but if you stick together you will be able to fight off almost anything.
Enter "The Ten Commandments"! (with my own translation):
I cannot find fault with ANY of them, for the simple reason that they have stood the test of time!
You are a small tribe of people who are liable to fragment and run away at the first sign of trouble. Alone, everyone is vulnerable, but if you stick together you will be able to fight off almost anything.
Enter "The Ten Commandments"! (with my own translation):
- You shall have no other Gods but me.
- We are all in this "club" together and we are united by a common belief.
- You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
- Look at No.1 above! In our "club" we only have one thing that we worship and that's called "God".
- You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
- You will not show any disrespect for our belief.
- You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
- One day every week will be put aside for you to rest and also to think about our belief.
- Respect your father and mother.
- Respect anyone who is older (and probably wiser) than you are.
- You must not commit murder.
- Because murdering someone upsets their relatives; who will invariably come looking for you!
- You must not commit adultery.
- Because screwing someone else's spouse upsets them; and they will surely seek revenge.
- You must not steal.
- Because nicking someone else's stuff gets them really upset; and they will seek recompense.
- You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.
- Lying about someone's activities get's them really upset and we have to believe our "club" members are honest.
- You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.
- Wanting something that isn't yours is almost as bad as murdering it, stealing it, lying about it etc!
I cannot find fault with ANY of them, for the simple reason that they have stood the test of time!
simon12
Landlord.
Sorry I am lost on your point, are far as I can tell John the apostle, the beloved disciple & John son of Zebedee are all the same person & the author of Johns gospel. The title John the evangelist as far as I can tell is not a biblical title but was used to describe the same John by the early Catholic church but I could be wrong here. Marks gospel was written by Mark who was either just a scribe for Peter or just got the information from Peter and wrote himself. Am I getting any of this wrong?
An Ankoù
Landlord.
No 4 is the day you brew your beer on unless you're a commercial brewer. The latter don't get a day off. It's a thirsty world out there. And that's the reason No 3 was put just before it- to pre-empt the brewing fraternity from doing a Job, not because 3 comes before 4.
Apart from that, I've always struggled with 7 and bits of 10. In fact 7 is almost universally misunderstood. It's really an interdiction against watering down your beer, wine and spirits (or adding any other adulterants). Nothing to do with having a bit of rumpy-pumpy on the quiet behind the goat pens.
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Nine pages later including several beer o'clocks and only one (predictable) ban. I'm genuinely impressed that folks here can exchange views without laying into each other. Such a relief from the world outside.
Great innit all these mad brewers and drinkers talking about what is or can be a touchy subject, reet i'll have another beer then 
An Ankoù
Landlord.
You're absolutely right. Ever tried having a conversation on Indie comments? I am beginning to understand why religious orders formed- to get away from the world outside.
An Ankoù
Landlord.
What about it then Chippy. Can we get away with (and claim charitable status) for calling ourselves the Irreligious Order of the Wholly Pisssed?
(No offence meant to those of genuine convictions. It's just that the beer goes to my head of a Friday and makes me a bit giddy).
(No offence meant to those of genuine convictions. It's just that the beer goes to my head of a Friday and makes me a bit giddy).
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don't think I have the hang of this quoting thingy yet but I like the order of the wholly ******, think I need another beer
Gulpitdarn
Regular.
The fourth commandment seems to imply that we should not have a cross on the alter in a church would you not agree?
An Ankoù
Landlord.
That's a very interesting question Gulpitdarn. Is the cross over the altar a reminder or an object of worship. If you're away from home, do you look lovingly at a photo of you kids or wife or do you worship the photo? I think it boils down to that.
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