Another newbie seeking assistance...

[Tonibee]

Hi Folks,

I'm a total newbie and I pressed 60 litres of apple juice last week. But I'm unsure what to do now. I wrote out a long post, but actually it comes down to a few questions, for which I'm struggling to find definitive answers, and to sort out some confusing and contradictory advice.

Some background first: My first 20ltrs finished fermenting in just a few days - catching me off guard because I don't have enough bottles yet, and I wasn't planning to rack it. I followed advice to open it, take a reading (which was 1.04) and stir it. I gave it a little yeast nutrient and put the lid back on because I'm aiming for 1.00).

My second 20 litres finished fermenting also in just a few days (about 30hrs ago), but I haven't opened that or taken a reading yet.

My third bucket is still going.

I planned to bottle the first bucket, but I'm confused because some advice says I should add another campden tablet, yet I want it fizzy, so shouldn't do that, and having opened it and stirred it I'm now worried I may have done some harm. It will be a few days or a week at least before I have enough bottles - how can I keep it from spoiling (now, and in the bottle)?

The second bucket I'm sure I can leave for up to several weeks because I haven't opened it, but in any case I will rack that into demi-johns with airlocks. Do I need to add or anything to it? As far as I can tell, the purpose of doing this is just to let it sit and settle - but some advice says to fill the container to the very brim to prevent air getting it. If I add a campden tablet to each demi-john, will that keep it safe.

The third bucket I want to take all the way to wine and have similar questions.



If there is a solid and reliable guide to what do do after fermenting, that more than one of you endorses, I'd be more than happy to be signposted. I just need to know what do do now - after initial fermentation - and not have to worry about that advice from A is different than that from B.

Sorry to be so long-winded. I hope I've made sense.

 

[freester]

Don't apologise. I was in a similar situation to you this time last year... What to do after the ferment... All the differing advice going round your head. There isn't any right way to doing it. Just understanding the process and what each step does and if you can get away with not doing it.

First things first, make sure you're happy the ferment has finished. Make sure the hydrometer reading isn't going down any more by taking a reading a few days in a row...

I think your main worry is lack of vessels to rack off into? Yes you are right that the cider can quite happily sit on the lees once the ferment has finished. You're worried the bucket you've already opened may have lost its layer of CO2 protecting it? ...It will probably be OK. There will be a bit of CO2 absorbed in the cider that will breathe out.

Personally I would probably rack the first bin off into your demi-johns. In the mean time you could get some more containers or bottles for your other 2 bins.

The cider isn't doing much else than settling / conditioning when it gets racked off after the initial ferment. But will result in a clearer cider.

You're right that you don't want to kill / stabilise your cider if you want it fizzy. I personally don't do anything after ferment apart from minimise contact with air when racking, and adding a bit of sugar to the bottles I want fizzy.

As long as you're clean and sterilise everything you'll be fine. I only ended up with one 660ml bottle of vinegar last year out of 50l.

My method last year (which I'm sticking to this year).

After ferment rack from bins. I may not have enough carboys / demijohns so may brim a couple more fermenting bins.

Let the racked off settle until end Nov / Early Dec. Bottle what I want as fizzy.

The rest I'll just let it continue conditioning in containers until I bottle next Spring / Summer.

 

[Bigeck]

A good tip I got off this forum, if you are not bothered about presentation, use 2Ltr plastic lemonade or fizzy water bottles. I do this for my cider. So much more convenient.

 

[Tonibee]

A good tip I got off this forum, if you are not bothered about presentation, use 2Ltr plastic lemonade or fizzy water bottles. I do this for my cider. So much more convenient.

I'm already there. I asked on Facebook for friends to save me their 500ml fizzy drinks bottles, but I guess they don't drink much cos I've had none!! I'm having to pick them up from the street. I don't mind though - this whole project has been one of reclaim and recycle.

Any suggestions as to best place to find that size bottle (apart from public parks on bank holidays :lol:) to recycle? My local recycling centre isn't an option.

 

[Tonibee]

Thanks Freester! Appreciate that.

 

[Bigeck]

Aldi, Lidl and and Asda sell bottles of fizzy water and lemonade for about 17p in 2ltr sizes. All the other supermarkets will have them in their cheap ranges.

 

[freester]

Aldi, Lidl and and Asda sell bottles of fizzy water and lemonade for about 17p in 2ltr sizes. All the other supermarkets will have them in their cheap ranges.

^^^ this. If you buy the water you also don't have to faff about with sterilisation. Pour the water out and fill up with your cider!

 

[Amnesia180]

This has been a good post for me to read.

Sorry to jump on the band wagon, but I have a question.

My initial fermentation is ongoing. Once it stops, I want to rack off and leave the lees behind. I am only doing 1 gallon batches at the moment. I am concerned however, that I won't be able to fill the demijohn to the brim as there is a bit of a gap (see picture).
Will this matter? Or should I press some more fresh juice the day or so before and top up using that (without campden/yeast etc)? Alternatively, I can just leave it as it is with the gap after I have racked away from the sediment.

 

[freester]

Once racking off I would want to minimise the gap / exposure to air. You could just rack off and top up with water. Or I might consider racking all of first DJ, top up with 2nd DJ, then top up what's left of 2nd DJ with more juice.

I'd probably treat the 'new' juice with a campden and leave for 24 hours before topping up.

 

[Amnesia180]

Once racking off I would want to minimise the gap / exposure to air. You could just rack off and top up with water. Or I might consider racking all of first DJ, top up with 2nd DJ, then top up what's left of 2nd DJ with more juice.

I'd probably treat the 'new' juice with a campden and leave for 24 hours before topping up.

Unfortunately, both DJs have different yeast so I can't mix the two.

I may do as you have said, make fresh juice, add campden then top-up. As they are only gallon batches, it isn't going to be much juice that I need to add. I'm worried water (fresh bottled water from supermarket) will dilute the taste of the cider too much?

 

[Bigeck]

Top up before fermentation finishes and you will have a DJ full of usable cider. No dilution.

The trick is to do this after the initial few days of fermentation after the yeast has calmed down.


Also, when buying water for the bottles you need the carbonated stuff if you want bottles capable of handling the pressure of carbonated cider. Otherwise, big mess in your storage cupboard.

 

[Tonibee]

^^^ this. If you buy the water you also don't have to faff about with sterilisation. Pour the water out and fill up with your cider!

Yes, but I want sparkling cider so must have bottles rated for pressure, so water no good, but cheap lemonade is a maybe :-D

 

[Tonibee]

Update:

Tested my first batch again and it has fermented a little further and probably still has a little way to go - I misread my reading on Tuesday.

1. A couple more questions: Why is it important to make sure fermentation has finished before first racking?
2. Why is it important to fill to brim on racking?
3. PH is around 3.2 and it tastes tart. I know I can back-sweeten when bottling to reduce dryness, and that acid taste will settle with time; but generally, what is relationship between acid and dryness and is there a guide for getting it right? At 3.2, would you experienced cider makers be adding chalk?

 

[freester]

Yes, but I want sparkling cider so must have bottles rated for pressure, so water no good, but cheap lemonade is a maybe :-D

Ah yes but cheapo sparkling water plastic bottles at 2l are perfect!

 

[freester]

Update:

Tested my first batch again and it has fermented a little further and probably still has a little way to go - I misread my reading on Tuesday.

1. A couple more questions: Why is it important to make sure fermentation has finished before first racking?

If you're bottling you want the ferment to finish to avoid making bottle bombs. It's less important if you are racking off but that said if the ferment has finished you'll have less lees to settle out after the first racking.

2. Why is it important to fill to brim on racking?

To minimise exposure to air.

3. PH is around 3.2 and it tastes tart. I know I can back-sweeten when bottling to reduce dryness, and that acid taste will settle with time; but generally, what is relationship between acid and dryness and is there a guide for getting it right? At 3.2, would you experienced cider makers be adding chalk?

There isn't really a relationship between acidity and dryness IMO. That said the dryer the cider gets the more apparent the acid in the cider. In my experience the acid WILL mellow in time. Especially if you can wait until next spring and the fabled malolactic ferment that occurs will mellow this out.

Personally I do add some chalk before the the ferment to raise the pH. Many won't.

Caveat: I wouldn't call myself experienced. I did it once before; last year, and had OK results :)

 

[Amnesia180]

Top up before fermentation finishes and you will have a DJ full of usable cider. No dilution.

The trick is to do this after the initial few days of fermentation after the yeast has calmed down.

Thank you for this update. I assume you mean top up with bottled water?

I am planning on making more juice this weekend to try a different type of yeast anyway, so if I just make a bit extra plain juice, throw in a campden tablet and leave it for a while. Then when fermentation has completely finished (in the original DJs), I can rack into a new DJ, add the premade juice which had the campden tablet to top up and then I can just leave it?

 

[Bigeck]

Thank you for this update. I assume you mean top up with bottled water?

I am planning on making more juice this weekend to try a different type of yeast anyway, so if I just make a bit extra plain juice, throw in a campden tablet and leave it for a while. Then when fermentation has completely finished (in the original DJs), I can rack into a new DJ, add the premade juice which had the campden tablet to top up and then I can just leave it?

If fermentation is still going top up with juice .

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Amnesia180]

If fermentation is still going top up with juice .

And if it is not? Top up with water?

I'm going away for the weekend, so won't be able to top up with juice until Monday... I'll take a hydrometer reading on Monday and see if it is still fermenting.

If it isn't, can I just rack it away, add juice, and secondary fermentation (although mild) will kick in?

 

[Bigeck]

If you top up with juice you get mate cider. If you top up with water you get dilution, of flavour and alcohol content.

Now, you do not want fermentation to complete till all yeasties are dead as you want secondary fermentation to go ahead in the bottles. if you have complete fermentation in the primary and leave it too long you will have nothing left to make fizz in the bottles.

There are 3 options here, all before primary fermentation concludes as detailed above:
1. top up the DJ with water. Rack and add sugar (or enough AJ to give you the required amount of secondary fizz) then bottle and leave for secondary fermentation in the bottle which will increase alcohol content and add fizz.
2. top up the DJ with AJ and allow primary fermentation to continue, then follow option 1 above.
3. top up with AJ then bottle immediately for secondary fermentation to continue in the bottle.

Does this make sense?

 

[Amnesia180]

Yes I think that makes sense.

The only problem I have is I think fermentation is finishing... But I'm not back until Monday afternoon to check or do anything about it.

I'm going to press some AJ today. Then add it on Monday, and hope that primary fermentation hasn't completed.

I'll then leave a little long and rack to a larger DJ to clear before then thirdly bottling.