Another brew down the drain ??

[An Ankoù]

No they were all different but ended up with same smell weirdly. Standard recipes from online or diy dog nothing crazy. Tried to hit relevant temps 60min mash about 65deg then 60min boil, i colled last two using immersion thinking that mby it was becasue i colled a couple overnight but no difference. I do hv bit of a sparging issue that it takes aaaaages if i dont stir and move the grain around to let water pass through.
Its a klarstein machfest i think. No recirc so i jst pour water with jug through grain basket after my mash out. I have noticed the grain in basket is def cooler than the temp display says on the unit but i tried to compensate this time to get the mash temp spot on.
Could it be that im stireing the mash or over sparging perhaps ? I start of with about 18-20litres water for mash but i end up having to add a lot to get my boil volume up to where i want it.
Ive done a bit reading online and a lot of people dont seem to think mash temp (if low) is a problem as far as i can gather. Not sure if mash out temp would cause this either as i read thats just to help the grain drain better, sorry as you can tell i get all my info from reading posts and other online stuff. I have one book but cant fond anything in there to explain my issue

I don't think any of this would cause an "off" flavour. I think your cleaning agent is chlorine-based, but the smell you describe isn't a chlorine derivative. Nevertheless, using a no-rinse sanitiser on top of vwp isn't a good idea as the last remnants of the vwp need to be washed away. I wonder if that big load of Chinook is making it pong. It would hang about after bottling, too.
Go back to the last decent brew you made. What did you do differently or was it a very different kind of beer?

 

[strange-steve]

I'd be surprised if it were a mash or sparge issue. Even if you were extracting tannins from over-sparging (which I think is less of a problem than often cited) I'm not sure that would present itself in the aroma. It's more a mouthfeel and flavour issue, like stewed black tea.

 

[Mugatu78]

First brew was dead pony club attempt and it wS so close. Smelt very hoppy from the simcoe and that boozy kinda solvent smell was just in the background. Just been **** since then to be honest. Same smell each batch. I did a small batch on the stove few weeks ago and it smells ok so far. The smell doesnt smell like hops at all more a malty boozy rank smell like an old towel ...

 

[An Ankoù]

First brew was dead pony club attempt and it wS so close. Smelt very hoppy from the simcoe and that boozy kinda solvent smell was just in the background. Just been s**t since then to be honest. Same smell each batch. I did a small batch on the stove few weeks ago and it smells ok so far. The smell doesnt smell like hops at all more a malty boozy rank smell like an old towel ...

Hmm.
Going to have to think about this one. Could you tell us what malts you used. I once made a beer using some roasted wheat malt. It smelt and tasted horrible, a bit like what you're describing. There's no problem with this malt except 1- I don't like the flavour and 2- I used too much.
Just a thought.
I think I know the flavour you're describing, by the way, having worked in a pub in my younger days.

 

[stz]

You've said a lot of different things which could potentially be a lot of things, but the one that sticks out the most is when you say wet bar towel. Are you sure it just isn't good old oxygenation?

 

[An Ankoù]

Do any of these conditions or descriptors hold true? Is your bag of grain getting a bit damp?

https://www.belgiansmaak.com/off-flavours-in-beer-off-flavours/
"My Beer Smells Musty"
Off Flavour: TCA

Chemical Name: 2,4,6-trichloroanisole

How to Identify: This one smells like mould, corked wine or a damp cellar. We all felt it was really like walking down into Franklin and Kim’s (impressive) beer cellar or sniffing the cork from a wine bottle.

What it is: TCA is a chemical created by mould which consumes chlorinated phenols and metabolises them and it can be detected by humans at extremely low levels.

How it is caused: Generally TCA is caused when beer is fermenting somewhere that is damp or where the grain has developed mould in storage but TCA is capable of migrating through most semi-porous packaging and thus cross contamination can occur across several areas of beer production, from raw materials to final packaging.

 

[Mugatu78]

I did

You've said a lot of different things which could potentially be a lot of things, but the one that sticks out the most is when you say wet bar towel. Are you sure it just isn't good old oxygenation?

consider that but i pnly opened fv couple times and one batch was in a carboy with obly small opening and again only opened to dryhop so i dnt think so. The chlorine thing is something i will hv to consider if i dodnt rinse enough. Ertainly felt i rinsed enough at the time though

 

[Mugatu78]

It doesnt smell like mould no and the grain def kept dry.
I did pitch a bit hot 24-25deg but it cpuld only have been that temp for an hour or so while fridge cooled.
And i only used one pack pf yeast each time so overpitching isnt it i dont think as ive seen many on here say the pitch two packs

 

[Mugatu78]

I have a new bucket coming thrpugh the week. Going to thoroughly clean everything and boil kit up to clean kill anything that may be there and try not use the vwp of thats chlorine
Based just incase thats the problem.
See how that goes. Fingers crossed it turns out ok

 

[Mugatu78]

As for type of grain mentioned earlier its mostly pale malt with some crystal malt. Last one was 4.5kg pale
And 400g crystal

 

[Mugatu78]

Im going to cold crash this latest batch and transfer to king keg tmoro probably with priming sugar and see how it is in two weeks. Not much else i can do with it

 

[GerritT]

Thats a dry hop of about 65 g of chinook as its all i had left. Sterilised bag in boiling water. Not sure what dank is haha

Chinook. That's harsh in itself! But seriously: how do you ferment? Plastic bucket, metal vessel, something else!

 

[Mugatu78]

Is it ? Haha its first time ive used it. I have used a bucket (plastic) and a carboy also plastic. Same results

 

[Birkin]

OP - The best thing you can do here is type out your entire brew-day routine, as best you can remember it. I know you said you're new to this, don't worry about people picking your brew technique apart, there are a lot of good people on here - you'll no doubt get some very sound advice!

Given that you're having the same issue, i think its worth taking the time to go through your brewday.

Whatever it is, don't give up and rest assured, it's findable and fixable!

 

[Mugatu78]

OP - The best thing you can do here is type out your entire brew-day routine, as best you can remember it. I know you said you're new to this, don't worry about people picking your brew technique apart, there are a lot of good people on here - you'll no doubt get some very sound advice!

Given that you're having the same issue, i think its worth taking the time to go through your brewday.

Whatever it is, don't give up and rest assured, it's findable and fixable!

Thanks. Ok i will do that once i have put the wee boy to bed.
All replies appreciated

 

[trevorS]

Im the new boy to all grain but have you tasted it ?

 

[Mugatu78]

Yes it tastes kinda like it smells really. Its beer but has that nasty background taste that just kills it. First attempt was so almost there with the dead pony club recipe but had that slight taste. I thought the brews would get better but it just got worse. All seems good till day 5-10 of fermentation then i can smell it. My last ipa for five days smelt sooooo good during initial fermentation. Lovely hop smells. A week or so later the smell was there. So deflating

 

[foxbat]

This is it in secondary vessel

The secondary vessel aka the oxidation bucket. You can drop this stage from your process. Its effects are only harmful for standard brews that don't need unusual additions (eg big stouts).

 

[An Ankoù]

Whatever it is, don't give up and rest assured, it's findable and fixable!

Dead right. You've already provided a lot of information and I can't see anything that you're doing wrong. I'm not convinced it's oxydation; you describe a stale beer smell, not a sherry-like smell. Either something is getting into your beer which shouldn't be there eg, something nasty leaching from the plastic into the beer, or you're putting something in that's ok, but you don't like the flavour of it.
I'd urge you to give us a complete list of ingredients, tell us how old each ingredient is, what your equipment is made of and what you do with it.
Two suggestions: Get a kit- it doesn't have to be expensive and brew it up according to the instructions. Do you have the same off-flavour?
Is there a member near you who you could invite to pop round and have a sniff and a taste and a look? Might save a lot of time, money and heartache in the long run.

 

[Sadfield]

I think I would buy some Oxyclean from your local Poundstretcher and some Starsan if you don't already have it. Give all your cold side kit a good clean with the Oxy, rinse and Starsan. I'd probably do a thorough clean now with a good soak and then a quick clean again on brew day.

The regime should be.

1) Mechanically clean with a non-abrasive cloth, sponge etc.
2) Chemically clean with the Oxycleaner.
3) Rinse.
4) Sanitise with Starsan as close to usage as possible.

At your next brew day, brew a simple beer with base malt only and a hop you are most familiar with. Ferment this with something clean like US05 for two weeks, in a sealed fv. During this period, do not crack the lid to look at, sniff or poke about with the beer. Don't dry hop.

Once fermented, rack to a barrel and couple of bottles and carbonate. Once these are conditioned, check to see if the fault is still there. Report back.

I'd perhaps post out some affected bottles to a few members on here. Hopefully, there are some with BJCP certification that have done off flavour training, and are willing to help.