Alkalinity of late water additions

[An Ankoù]

I often make 20 litre batches on the stove-top by brewing overstrength as much as I can in my 15 litre pot and then lquoring back before pitching the yeast. My tap water contains 107 ppm CaCO3 and I have easy access to mineral water with a profile close to RO water. So I dilute my mash and sparge water to around 85ppm for a mild, for example, and build the calcium back with CaSO4 and CaCl2. When the deed is done, is there any point in treating the water I use to liquor back the overstrength wort to target OG. Or would ordinary tap water suffice.
I know my tap water isn't much more alkaline than the 100 ppm suggested for a mild anyway, But if I were to do this with a bitter (which I do quite frequently) there would be a significant difference in alkalinity.
My stance at the moment is that since all the enzyme activity and chemistry happens during the mash, sparge and boil, there's not much left to go wrong afterwards and I'm not averse to decreasing the acidity of the beer a little bit.
I typically get 13-13½ litres of wort and end up diliuting this to about 18-19 litres to get the target OG. Sometimes, I hit the 20 litres, but I'm not over-concerned about this.

Any thoughts?

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I hope you boil your tap water for 60 minutes as 30 minutes won’t kill the bugs.

 

[Pennine]

I am not sure I understand your question, so ignore if its not what you are asking?

I have read about people lowering the pH post boil but I have not heard about dilution impacts the opposite way. I'd be curious what your pH is going into the fermenter, might be worth checking. I am not sure if there is a large taste impact though, and typically the post boil acid additions I have read about are for pilsners. Some things I have read were more related to potential for having contamination issues if your pH is too high.

 

[The Baron]

I'm with you AA I am not a expert on water so feel free to ignore if a expert comes along and de-bunks it but I was always under the belief that all the magic happens in the mash/boil and that once that has happened the addition of tap water would have minimal effect as long as it is not miles of the mark unless it has some impact on the yeast maybe?
I have got to admit I have liquored back bur only to top up if I have had a larger boil off than expected or got the sparge amount wrong so probably a max of 2 litres and it does not seem to have altered much IMO

 

[Buffers brewery]

I hope you boil your tap water for 60 minutes as 30 minutes won’t kill the bugs.

Don’t think @An Ankoù is using Warrington water (not that it’s got any bugs in it)

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Straight out of the Mersey so pure as the driven sewage.

 

[foxy]

I often make 20 litre batches on the stove-top by brewing overstrength as much as I can in my 15 litre pot and then lquoring back before pitching the yeast. My tap water contains 107 ppm CaCO3 and I have easy access to mineral water with a profile close to RO water. So I dilute my mash and sparge water to around 85ppm for a mild, for example, and build the calcium back with CaSO4 and CaCl2. When the deed is done, is there any point in treating the water I use to liquor back the overstrength wort to target OG. Or would ordinary tap water suffice.
I know my tap water isn't much more alkaline than the 100 ppm suggested for a mild anyway, But if I were to do this with a bitter (which I do quite frequently) there would be a significant difference in alkalinity.
My stance at the moment is that since all the enzyme activity and chemistry happens during the mash, sparge and boil, there's not much left to go wrong afterwards and I'm not averse to decreasing the acidity of the beer a little bit.
I typically get 13-13½ litres of wort and end up diliuting this to about 18-19 litres to get the target OG. Sometimes, I hit the 20 litres, but I'm not over-concerned about this.

Any thoughts?

First thing that springs to mind is O2 in the water you don't want to be diluting with water straight out of the tap. Boiling not only sanitisers but reduces the O2.
Your finished beer pH should be somewhere in the region of 4.1 -4.6, if I was going to do it I would boil the water and match that water to whatever the pH of the beer of which it is being added.

If you have been doing the above throughout your brewing and been happy with the outcome I wouldn't bother, apart from the O2 being added to the beer.
I will just add the the big commercials do this all the time, but they have the equipment and means for doing it.

 

[An Ankoù]

First thing that springs to mind is O2 in the water you don't want to be diluting with water straight out of the tap. Boiling not only sanitisers but reduces the O2.
Your finished beer pH should be somewhere in the region of 4.1 -4.6, if I was going to do it I would boil the water and match that water to whatever the pH of the beer of which it is being added.

If you have been doing the above throughout your brewing and been happy with the outcome I wouldn't bother, apart from the O2 being added to the beer.
I will just add the the big commercials do this all the time, but they have the equipment and means for doing it.

Thanks, Foxy. Two things I need to add: I liquor back before pitching the yeast not at the end of fermentation, so I would say a bit of additional O2 at this point would be welcome.
I use the term tap water loosely. If I do use tap water then I pasteurise and let it cool overnight, but if I use bottled mineral water I chuck it straight in. One brand has 4ppm of CaCO3 and the other has 150ppm. The latter comes in 5 litre bottles, an ideal size for topping up since I never use an already-open bottle. It's also half the price of the low-mineral water, which I use for diluting my tap water for earlier processes.
The question was academic as the coats involved are not great anyway, but I'd rather save energy whenever possible.
I'll check the pH of the finished beer, but even if its a little higher, is that important?

 

[foxy]

Thanks, Foxy. Two things I need to add: I liquor back before pitching the yeast not at the end of fermentation, so I would say a bit of additional O2 at this point would be welcome.
I use the term tap water loosely. If I do use tap water then I pasteurise and let it cool overnight, but if I use bottled mineral water I chuck it straight in. One brand has 4ppm of CaCO3 and the other has 150ppm. The latter comes in 5 litre bottles, an ideal size for topping up since I never use an already-open bottle. It's also half the price of the low-mineral water, which I use for diluting my tap water for earlier processes.
The question was academic as the coats involved are not great anyway, but I'd rather save energy whenever possible.
I'll check the pH of the finished beer, but even if its a little higher, is that important?

I sort of guesed you would be boiling the water, or at least taking it up to a temperature where you wouldn't be adding anything else but water. As it is for you and you are drinking it yourself, no it isn't important.

 

[foxy]

I often make 20 litre batches on the stove-top by brewing overstrength as much as I can in my 15 litre pot and then lquoring back before pitching the yeast. My tap water contains 107 ppm CaCO3 and I have easy access to mineral water with a profile close to RO water. So I dilute my mash and sparge water to around 85ppm for a mild, for example, and build the calcium back with CaSO4 and CaCl2. When the deed is done, is there any point in treating the water I use to liquor back the overstrength wort to target OG. Or would ordinary tap water suffice.
I know my tap water isn't much more alkaline than the 100 ppm suggested for a mild anyway, But if I were to do this with a bitter (which I do quite frequently) there would be a significant difference in alkalinity.
My stance at the moment is that since all the enzyme activity and chemistry happens during the mash, sparge and boil, there's not much left to go wrong afterwards and I'm not averse to decreasing the acidity of the beer a little bit.
I typically get 13-13½ litres of wort and end up diliuting this to about 18-19 litres to get the target OG. Sometimes, I hit the 20 litres, but I'm not over-concerned about this.

Any thoughts?

This was running through my mind last night, it is a very intriguing question. I know that our bodies can control our pH, and plants can to a certain level control and adjust their pH. Why does pH change during fermentation? My initial thoughts was maybe yeast can to some extent control fermentation which suits them?
Yeast has been around since before earth became oxygenated, yet they lived and multiplied.
Unfortunately my mind was running ahead of itself, here is a simple explanation. An excellent question AA.

https://byo.com/article/the-principles-of-ph/

 

[An Ankoù]

Thanks for that, Foxy. I won't even start reading it until I can give it my full attention, which, with visitors, Boris vote and other celebrations, is likely to be tomorrow.

 

[An Ankoù]

Thanks again, Foxy. The pertinent section is the paragraph

And Finally, Fermentation​

and it's here that i need to pursue my enquiry into the effects of (effectively) raising the post-boil pH before pitching.
I feel another philosophical question coming on....