adding lactobacillus after fermentation

[jimblob]

I did a burnt honey brew a few months ago, so now I have 4 demijohns sat in the garage waiting for me to play with them.

My question is can I add a lactobacillus culture to them now or would that be a waste of time?

If I can add lactobacillus can anyone tell me the best way of doing this?

Many thanks.

 

[tonyhibbett]

MLF requires malic acid, which is naturally present in grapes, apples and some other fruit, but probably not honey.

 

[graysalchemy]

Is this burnt honey a wine or a cider?

If it isn't ie a mead then I don't see the benifit to the flavour profile. Lactobacillus as Tony points out need malic acid and will also leave the cider with a farmyard twang which may not go well with the flavour of how I imagine burnt honey to taste.

f you do want to add it you can buy lactobacillus cultures or add the dregs from a bottle of westons Old Rosie cider that certainly has lactobacillus in it. :thumb:

 

[Thrupney_Bit]

Hi Jim

Your question is timely as I too am looking to add MLB cultures to my cider. You do need to make sure that you have malic acid present in your must as that's what the baccilus will convert to lactic acid. I used a titration kit to confirm acidty level for sulphuric acid and then back calculate for malic. Having pressed the apples from a cider orchard I was pretty sure that my acid content was right but I don't like to leave things to chance.

I've opted to directly innoculate my brew with a sachet of Wyeast 4007 strain. It comes in a sealed package which you add straight in. There are freeze dried versions which you'll need to hydrate but I wanted the convenience and haven't used these.

Others have carried out MLF so the following is from my reading around the subject, rather than practical experience; this is my first year having a go at MLF. Traditionally MLF was carried out in spring when the temperature picked up so MLF should be carried out at warmer temps. It is important that MLF is carried out on the must after it has finished or nearly finished fermenting, the reason being that too higher sugar content can yield acetic acid. With regards to pressure from MLF it seems to be the case that the gas produced by MLF is very minimal and would not be expected to cause any problems with pressure.

Good luck with your efforts, I hope it goes well. I'm always knocked back by how good real cider from real apples tastes so hopefully a bit of malolactic fermentation might make things even better! :)

 

[graysalchemy]

Those of us who use Old Rosie yeast (which is infected with Lactobacillus) are adding it at the start with no detriment to the quality of cider, I haven't had any acectic acid production in all the time I have made cider. I usually make a batch in the autumn and I get MLF going with in a month or so of fermentation finishing, and it continues to with MLF right through winter even ad temps not much above freezing. This in actual fact would be the time of year when cider proiduction would traditionally take place, cider is fermented in the autumn and the cider is left to mature over winter, when the MLF would then occour.

 

[GZCider]

What is acectic acid production?

 

[tonyhibbett]

MLF in wine seems to be different in (grape) wine, in as much as no film appears on the surface and the pressure created in the bottle can be very significant, which is not usually desirable for reds. This can be avoided by ageing in bulk before bottling, leaving the sediment behind. About 70% of the acid in grape juice is malic, but I know of no way to measure this. Titration will indicate total acid in terms of sulphuric acid, which of course, is not present. To convert to the equivalent amount of tartaric acid, simply add 50% and for malic add 12.5 %. Malic is considered to be the more sour tasting of the two, so 'mouth-feel' is a helpful iindicator and with a wine which tastes too acidic, MLF can be a great improver, conveting malic into the smoother lactic, without any effect on the tartaric, whereas the addition of potassium carbonate will neutralise the tartaric first, and once that's all gone, it will start on the malic,a process which, unfortunately, produces off flavours.
So MLF is perhaps the 'philosopher's stone', in as much as it can transform a sow's ear of a wine into a silk purse, almost!
As far as cider is concerned, the lower alcohol level does make it more susceptable to the acetobacter, but the relationship with this and residual sugar is a new one to me, but since I prefer a dry cider, not an issue of concern!

 

[tonyhibbett]

I note the enquiry about acetic acid. A small amount is naturally produced, but too much of it is unpleasant. Under controlled curcumstances, good vinegar is produced, and while it has great culinary and health applications, it doesn't make a pleasant drink. I fondly recall the incident when an old cider maker lost his licence by the health police because there were too many spider webs in his brewery. He pointed out that this was deliberate as the spiders controlled the vinegar fly, thus protecting his cider. These flies carry acetobacillus. They are no myth. I have seen them floating in fermentration traps. The bacteria they carry mean business and will set to work to ruin your brew. But don't rely on spiders for protection. Unfortunately, the same conditions that encourage MLF, also encourage acetification with cider, less so with wine above 10% abv.

 

[tonyhibbett]

A correction is in order. The amount of malic acid in grapes decreases during ripening, so most of the total acid would be tartaric, not the other way round. In apples most of the total acid is malic.

 

[Thrupney_Bit]

Hi Tony

Thanks for the input, very useful indeed. That's another bit of helpful cider making information.

I am entertained by the story of spiders being an appropriate means to reduce the chances of vinegar flies spoiling the brew! The reference to acetification came from reading an American wine making magazine (online). Various vinyard owners were discussing the use of MLB in their fermentation process. The reference made was that when sugar content is too high there is a risk that the MLB produce volatile compounds (what compounds these are I'm not sure - they didn't say) but the main point was that this can lead to off flavours. The main reason stated for leaving the MLB inocculation till the end (sulphiting processes destroying any natural bacteria) was that the MLB would potentially compete with the brewing yeast for sugars. By leaving the addition till the sugars had been fermeted out you guaranteed that maximum alcohol production has been achieved. Also, As you've pointed out, with a high alcohol pecentage achieved you help reduce the risks of spoilage by bacteria you don't want!

So far my MLF seems to be going well. Small bubbles rising within the DJ and lifting the bung to take a quick sniff suggests that the bacteria are working. I don't think I'm imaginging it but it does smell slightly buttery. Colour of the brew is beautifully golden and it is just a matter of waiting!

 

[tonyhibbett]

As the name suggests, lactic acid is present in milk and, presumably butter. Word of warning. Most of the total acid in apples, again as the name infers, is malic. It is possible for mlf to convert all of this into lactic, so the end product could end up rather bland. In the case of a recent red wine, I had to add some malic acid to make it more palatable. Typically the amount of malic acid in a finished grape wine is about 20% of the total acidity, but clearly, in this case it was much higher.

 

[graysalchemy]

Its not the lactic acid which is important in cider, it is the by products of malolactic fermentation which give the cider its farmyard twang and these give the cider plenty of flavour. the lactic still adds acidity but is more rounded that the malic so win win from MLF were cider is concerned. :thumb: