50L or 30L all-in-one brew systems

[kelper]

I'm still enjoying beer kits but would love to try AG brewing. There are some good offers this month but I was wondering if a 50L setup would be unsuitable for a 30L brew? I saw an offer where the 50L kit was cheaper. Would I regret getting a 50L system? I currently don't plan to be too adventurous, in that I don't think I want to experiment with my own recipes but I would like to perfect a beer similar to TT Landlord or Woodforde's Wheery. Having said that, I recently bought a sis-pack of Fullers guest beers and each one was uber tasty so my plans might change.

Second question - if I buy an all-in-one brew system it seems that I would still need to buy a separate kettle for sparging. Would going without a separate water heater spoil an AG brew or would it just lower the efficiency/yield?

Thanks.

 

[foxy]

If you bought a 50 litre set up you could do 30 litre batches of 'no sparge'.

 

[stz]

I was going to build a 100l kit and settled on 50l. Wasn't a big difference in price, just a few quid on each vessel, pumps, heat exchanger, fittings, valves etc all the same. Very content doing 25l batches on it? Results in an easier brew day for sure. Wouldn't want smaller as boil volumes are regularly 30l.

Say you want 20l in keg. You'll lose to yeast, trub, dry hopping and hoses. You'll want 22l in fermenter. You'll have losses to chilling, copper and hops. You'll want 25l in copper. You'll have losses to evaporation in the boil. You'll want 30l up front. Depending on batch size 30l is a bit limiting though there are dodges to avoid any problems, topping up liquor back and so on. It is nice to not have to though.

 

[kelper]

@stz, that's just the advice I was looking for! Thanks! Shame my birthday is not until November...

 

[Legolas]

I'm an estimator by trade and we have a saying "you're better looking at it than for it". I can't comment on the all in one systems but when I put my AG kit together I went big although I tend to brew much smaller batches than the capacity of my kit. If you go down the AG route, you'll end up,with a cornie or two (it just seems to happen) and having the ability to brew to fill two 19l cornies will be a definate plus.

 

[kelper]

OK, that's the 'pros'; are there any 'cons' in choosing a 50L over a 30L apart from cost? I guess there will be a minimum batch size but that seems very minor.

 

[kelper]

Hopcat 50L for £399 including spider, jacket and whirlpool arm seems a good offer?

 

[-Bezza-]

What holds much holds little.

 

[Ghillie]

Bigger is not necessarily better...

I had planned on graduating from 35L to 65L but decided against it for a couple of reasons:

1) I keg my beer, so brew 22L "into fermenter" batches to get ~19L finial volume. 35L is ideal for this.

2) I like to brew a different beer for each keg; a 65L system would give me a double batch so I'd have two kegs of the same beer.

3) I like to brew regularly, so a 35L system means I get to brew more. It's as much about the process as the beer for me.

4) I have two fermentation chambers, so a 65L would tie them both up with the same beer.

 

[kelper]

Bigger is not necessarily better...

I had planned on graduating from 35L to 65L but decided against it for a couple of reasons:

1) I keg my beer, so brew 22L "into fermenter" batches to get ~19L finial volume. 35L is ideal for this.

2) I like to brew a different beer for each keg; a 65L system would give me a double batch so I'd have two kegs of the same beer.

3) I like to brew regularly, so a 35L system means I get to brew more. It's as much about the process as the beer for me.

4) I have two fermentation chambers, so a 65L would tie them both up with the same beer.

But what stops you from brewing a half load?

 

[Ghillie]

But what stops you from brewing a half load?

What would be the point in getting a bigger system to brew the same volumes as the prior smaller system?

Apart from being a silly idea, there's detrimental impacts too such as increased deadspace, poorer thermal properties due to increased mash headspace. To name but a few.

A bit like never breaking the speed limit on a superbike

 

[kelper]

What would be the point in getting a bigger system to brew the same volumes as the prior smaller system?

Apart from being a silly idea, there's detrimental impacts too such as increased deadspace, poorer thermal properties due to increased mash headspace. To name but a few.

A bit like never breaking the speed limit on a superbike

Well, the 50L Hopcat is considerably cheaper than the 30L and can easily do a 30L brew or a little more to allow for volume losses?

 

[An Ankoù]

I'm still enjoying beer kits but would love to try AG brewing. There are some good offers this month but I was wondering if a 50L setup would be unsuitable for a 30L brew? I saw an offer where the 50L kit was cheaper. Would I regret getting a 50L system? I currently don't plan to be too adventurous, in that I don't think I want to experiment with my own recipes but I would like to perfect a beer similar to TT Landlord or Woodforde's Wheery. Having said that, I recently bought a sis-pack of Fullers guest beers and each one was uber tasty so my plans might change.

Second question - if I buy an all-in-one brew system it seems that I would still need to buy a separate kettle for sparging. Would going without a separate water heater spoil an AG brew or would it just lower the efficiency/yield?

Thanks.

My kettle / copper is 60 litres capacity and my boils start at about 32 litres. When I chuck the hops in it fizzes up and nearly fills the vessel until it settles down. You need plenty of headspace in your kettle. Go for the 50, it's a no-brainer.

And happy birthday for November.

 

[Madhouse]

You can brew small batches in a big kettle, but you can't brew a big batch in a small kettle.

Currently I use just over half my kettle capacity, but if I want to do a large brew for a special occasion I have the ability to do so.

 

[Brad]

What would be the point in getting a bigger system to brew the same volumes as the prior smaller system?

Apart from being a silly idea, there's detrimental impacts too such as increased deadspace, poorer thermal properties due to increased mash headspace. To name but a few.

A bit like never breaking the speed limit on a superbike

Hi there,

I hope you don't mind me putting in a question here.

I have been trying to post on the site and can't figure out where I am going wrong!

The following is the post that I haven't been able to publish! Hope you can help!

My grandson is an aspiring young scientist doing a transition year project on brewing.

I promised I would help him with the research. But despite my best efforts, I have been unable to find an answer to his question "What is the most efficient and effective device/monitor used to identify contaminants, like bacteria, mold, yeast and something called beer-stone in beer."

My research and his shows various tests that involve taking samples to identify contaminants, however he is looking for a device/monitor that will identify bacteria, mold etc. The device/monitor does not have to have the capacity to identify different types of bacteria, just to show that they and other contaminants are there.

I would really appreciate any help you can give me on the above - also on how to post on the site.

Thanks for taking the time to deal with my query.

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

[kelper]

There is a delay between registering and having your account activated. You seem to have managed to post now! But really, you should start a thread of your own rather than take this one off topic.

Navigate to the forum 'General Home Brew Equipment Discussion' and click on the button, top-right, that says 'Post New Thread'. Give it a helpful title that summarises what you are asking and then type in the white area below these buttons.

Good luck

 

[Brad]

Big thanks Kelper - much appreciated!
I will take your advice!

 

[Ghillie]

Well, the 50L Hopcat is considerably cheaper than the 30L and can easily do a 30L brew or a little more to allow for volume losses?

I find that for "23L into fermenter" volume - I require a pre-boil volume of 28L. 30L will be borderline boil-over territory with the 30L unit. So in your instance, go with the 50L.

My setup is 35L, so is quite happy with 28L pre-boil.

 

[An Ankoù]

Hi there,

I hope you don't mind me putting in a question here.

I have been trying to post on the site and can't figure out where I am going wrong!

The following is the post that I haven't been able to publish! Hope you can help!

My grandson is an aspiring young scientist doing a transition year project on brewing.

I promised I would help him with the research. But despite my best efforts, I have been unable to find an answer to his question "What is the most efficient and effective device/monitor used to identify contaminants, like bacteria, mold, yeast and something called beer-stone in beer."

My research and his shows various tests that involve taking samples to identify contaminants, however he is looking for a device/monitor that will identify bacteria, mold etc. The device/monitor does not have to have the capacity to identify different types of bacteria, just to show that they and other contaminants are there.

I would really appreciate any help you can give me on the above - also on how to post on the site.

Thanks for taking the time to deal with my query.

I look forward to hearing from you.

In his book "Yeast", Chris White and Jamil Zainassheff provide small sections on testing for bacterial contamination and. separately, testing for wild yeast contamination. Both involve taking a sample and testing with indicators. He doesn't mention any kind of "device" that will provide an "intruder alert". A bit beyond the realms of a home-brew forum, I would suggest, as, although we are expert craftsmen and women, we don't ususally have the mega-bucks required for sophisticated laboratory equipment.

 

[stz]

hope you don't mind me putting in a question here.

Hilariously off topic, but if it helps ...

ATP detection is pretty snazzy and commonplace in breweries with SALSA accreditation as part of HACCP. You swab an area, place it in a luminosity reader and within a few minutes it'll give you an indication of how many living things are on that surface. It won't tell you what types of things are present, but it'll tell you something is there and if there is somewhere where there shouldn't be something, your sanitation isn't cutting the mustard. It is a quick and reliable way to test a piece of kit or surface. If I was taking a simple exam in food science/hygiene I'd put money on it being the answer.

Everything else you mention can be detected/confirmed with a microscope though it relies on the skill of the operator and sometimes needs to be quite bad to be detected. It isn't really valid for surfaces, but certainly yeast, beer, wort etc. Beer stone can be physically felt as well as seen by eye and under microscope. A microscope would be my answer if I was writing a verbose treaty on this essential piece of brewery kit. Swabbing is not uncommon for surfaces. You can swab, snap it off into a vial, incubate and then observe. You can also swab and streak out plates. The drawback is the result isn't immediate. The human brain/basic microbiology would be my fatuous reply if I was really on my soapbox!