1st Brew, 1st mistake, advice needed quick!
- Thread starter BruinTuns
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Was this the brew where you transferred half way through? maybe you got some oxygen in there.
But of course these mistakes here and there you know about now so you have the experience to know how to make sure you stop them.
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
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If that doesn't work I'd consider replacing my kit. This sound expensive but needn't be. You can get a fermenter for a tenner at wilko and I also read a member here uses 25L food grade jerry cans bought for about £3 on ebay.
Bottles can be had for nothing - your in London right? Where I get my ingredients in Brixton they give them away - nearly killed myself last saturday trying to get 60 330ml bottles home on the bus.
Other equipment can be sourced cheaply too. Dont give up, you've just had a bit of bad luck
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Thanks for all the input and encouragement, this is a bit demoralising.
Fil, my other two brews are also 'off'', though it's not quite the same thing as this one is decidedly worse. I think you're right though, three infected brews is so unlikely that something else must have caused the problem with the others. We're discussing it in another thread but so far oxidation looks to be the most likely cause, even though the taste is far worse than oxidised beer is usually described.
But oxidation does tick lots of boxes. The way that some bottles taste worse than others, the fact that the bad taste seems to be the same with all three brews and, as Covrich reminded me, the fact that the Evil Dog may have been oxygenated long before bottling and is by far the most consistently worst tasting.
Covrich, yes, this is the brew I split between the two fvs. That's a very useful post of yours in the other thread about your first brew. Sounds so like my situation. By coincidence one of my other two currently conditioning brews (Coopers Stout) was also part bottled direct from the tap and partly through the little bottler. It will be very interesting to see if there's any noticeable difference.
Bungle, thanks for posting. Tbh I'm not sure I can give up just yet because thanks to Tesco's sale I've nearly a hundred quids worth of kits to brew! Can't afford to waste them so I'll persevere with at least a few more. The two I have currently conditioning are another Coopers Stout and a JB Traditional English Ale. Too early to tell if they'll turn out any better but fingers crossed!
Brewski and MyQul, yes, good advice. Next time I'll try to be clinically sanitary, even if I get another bad brew at least I'll be able to eliminate poor sterilization as the cause.
MQ, re replacing my kit, do you mean that fvs can become permanently infected? I did buy them second hand but those first three brews were in three different buckets so I'd have to have been be very unlucky if they're all contaminated. And wouldn't the bleach kill anything harmful?
But if this problem persists I'll try anything to fix it.
By the way lads, is it ok to re-use the bottles that contained the bad beer if they're treated with Star San?
Fil, my other two brews are also 'off'', though it's not quite the same thing as this one is decidedly worse. I think you're right though, three infected brews is so unlikely that something else must have caused the problem with the others. We're discussing it in another thread but so far oxidation looks to be the most likely cause, even though the taste is far worse than oxidised beer is usually described.
But oxidation does tick lots of boxes. The way that some bottles taste worse than others, the fact that the bad taste seems to be the same with all three brews and, as Covrich reminded me, the fact that the Evil Dog may have been oxygenated long before bottling and is by far the most consistently worst tasting.
Covrich, yes, this is the brew I split between the two fvs. That's a very useful post of yours in the other thread about your first brew. Sounds so like my situation. By coincidence one of my other two currently conditioning brews (Coopers Stout) was also part bottled direct from the tap and partly through the little bottler. It will be very interesting to see if there's any noticeable difference.
Bungle, thanks for posting. Tbh I'm not sure I can give up just yet because thanks to Tesco's sale I've nearly a hundred quids worth of kits to brew! Can't afford to waste them so I'll persevere with at least a few more. The two I have currently conditioning are another Coopers Stout and a JB Traditional English Ale. Too early to tell if they'll turn out any better but fingers crossed!
Brewski and MyQul, yes, good advice. Next time I'll try to be clinically sanitary, even if I get another bad brew at least I'll be able to eliminate poor sterilization as the cause.
MQ, re replacing my kit, do you mean that fvs can become permanently infected? I did buy them second hand but those first three brews were in three different buckets so I'd have to have been be very unlucky if they're all contaminated. And wouldn't the bleach kill anything harmful?
But if this problem persists I'll try anything to fix it.
By the way lads, is it ok to re-use the bottles that contained the bad beer if they're treated with Star San?
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
I not so sure FV's can become permantely infected but the general advice for plastic FV (or anything plastic going near your beer) is to replace it every so often as plastic can scratch easily and microbes can then 'hide' in those scratches.
Having said that my FV's are scratched to feck as I keep all my FV's buckets and BIAB pot inside one another, and I've never had a problem (although as mentioned I seem to have a benign rogue colony of 'something' on top of my mild at the mo)
I also mentioned (either on this thread or the other - getting confused between the two now :wha:) that I have read microbes can form a biofilm that sometimes can be hard to shift. So if you didn't clean off this biofilm properly the microbes underneath can still be alive - even after santizing.
I also wonder if microbes can evolve resistance to sanitizing liquids in a similar way that rats can evolve a resistance to poison - not having a microbiolgy degree, I have no idea
I can't remember where I read about biofilms other than in relation to wild yeast/lambic beers so having done a bit of googling I found this that explains stuff in laymans terms:
http://www.futurecleansystems.com/proper-cleaning-and-sterilisation-for-home-brewers/
"Biofilm is a fine web that encapuslate the bacteria and protects them against harsh environmental conditions; we see the end result as a grey-black mass (mold is a fungus) in the corners of showers, toilets, bottles, anything that isn't cleaned and gets wet. The process of cleaning, therefore, requires that this mass build up be broken down and removed, exposing the underlining bacteria or fungus to the sterilisation step. If this not done, biofilm can protect the bacteria from the sterilisation liquid. Also, if the cleaning hasn't been sufficient to remove all visible material, bacteria can harbour inside the material and gain protection much like biofilm."
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Cheers Brewski, that's the way I was thinking. Glass is virtually impermeable so I think I'll risk it. Yeah, a bloody good wash is what I'll be doing henceforth. I do think that maybe I was relying a bit too much on the sterilizer rather than elbow grease, just didn't realize.
MQ, great post :hat:
If a little worrying. Microbes evolving resistance? Never thought about that, but why not? Everything else seems to, was reading other day that health experts are begging doctors to stop prescribing antibiotics whenever possible as diseases are becoming immune to them. There was even the suggestion that that's how the hospital 'superbugs' evolved.
Like you I'm no scientist either but your suggestion certainly makes sense.
Re this biofilm, it sounds like the cleaning of fvs might be a trickier than it looks. We shouldn't use scouring pads (scratches) yet we need to get into any tiny abrasions that are invisible to the naked eye.
And as you say, causing these is almost impossible to avoid sooner or later, even the mixing paddle will probably contribute.
I think I'll do the following: spray sides of fv liberally with Star San, the use a plastic bristled washing up brush to gently scrub. Rinse, then re-spray with Star San. Sound like a plan? Btw, how do you sanitise your fvs? I'm guessing you don't brim them with no rinse solution?
I hope that colony of whatever it is on your brew remains benign. My Evil Dog had a sort of dusty skin on the surface but tasted and smelled fine at bottling time. Only after a few weeks conditioning did it start to taste nasty, but I'm now hoping that was down to oxygenation like we're discussing in the other thread.
MQ, great post :hat:
If a little worrying. Microbes evolving resistance? Never thought about that, but why not? Everything else seems to, was reading other day that health experts are begging doctors to stop prescribing antibiotics whenever possible as diseases are becoming immune to them. There was even the suggestion that that's how the hospital 'superbugs' evolved.
Like you I'm no scientist either but your suggestion certainly makes sense.
Re this biofilm, it sounds like the cleaning of fvs might be a trickier than it looks. We shouldn't use scouring pads (scratches) yet we need to get into any tiny abrasions that are invisible to the naked eye.
And as you say, causing these is almost impossible to avoid sooner or later, even the mixing paddle will probably contribute.
I think I'll do the following: spray sides of fv liberally with Star San, the use a plastic bristled washing up brush to gently scrub. Rinse, then re-spray with Star San. Sound like a plan? Btw, how do you sanitise your fvs? I'm guessing you don't brim them with no rinse solution?
I hope that colony of whatever it is on your brew remains benign. My Evil Dog had a sort of dusty skin on the surface but tasted and smelled fine at bottling time. Only after a few weeks conditioning did it start to taste nasty, but I'm now hoping that was down to oxygenation like we're discussing in the other thread.
A good wash with hot water and something like an Oxi cleaner will easily sort out any surface grime. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
I rekon good washing & sanitising and using your bottling wand instead of bottling from the tap will sort your problem out BT.
I rekon good washing & sanitising and using your bottling wand instead of bottling from the tap will sort your problem out BT.
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
Uuh Oh. Mine looks like that - you've got me worried now :?
Seeing as the sparge went so well, I got 25L instead of 23L so I was planning to syphon from below to the bottling bucket and leave more beer than I usually do behind along with this little colony
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
After a little panic, briefly considered chucking in some campden tablets and repitiching in the bottling bucket. But after doing some googling/reading just racking from below will probably do the job
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
Having done some more googling, I may well have accidently made a lambic mild. My little colony might be some sort of mold pellicle.
Oh well, I was wondering what lambic beer tasted like
Oh well, I was wondering what lambic beer tasted like
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Brewski, I keep reading about these 'oxi' cleaners, is it a type of cleaner rather than a specific thing? Do the supermarkets sell it?
Sorry if I was a little alarmist MQ, I think my ED had other issues. I'm sure your
brew will be fine.
Sorry if I was a little alarmist MQ, I think my ED had other issues. I'm sure your
brew will be fine.
MyQul
Chairman of the Bored
Oxi cleaner is a specific type of cleaner. Vanish is a brand of oxi cleaner for example. You can get oxi cleaner in the laundry section of supermarkets. Most super markets do there own brand - thats where I get it anyway. Be careful you don't use too much as it can make a fine coating of white powder which is difficult to shift - as I found to my cost when trying to get the lables off bottles
Will be using it to clean the FV that has my 'lambic mild' in after I've racked it out. Followed by some serious cleaning with some washing up liquid
@BruinTuns Yes BT, this is the stuff I use:
http://m.tesco.com/h5/groceries/r/www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=264711060
Put 5L of hot water (as hot as your hands can handle) and a good scoop of that stuff in you FV, mix it up and get in there with a clean, soft cloth. Clean every inch of the inside (it doesn't take long).
Afterwards, give it a thorough rinse (I used a hosepipe outside). It will be squeaky clean and ready for sanitising. :thumb:
Edit: re using too much. It's only a problem if leaving it to soak - e.g. removing bottle labels or cleaning really stubborn, dried-on gak. In that instance I'd probably use about half the amount. For cleaning a recently used FV though, you won't need to leave it to soak.
http://m.tesco.com/h5/groceries/r/www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=264711060
Put 5L of hot water (as hot as your hands can handle) and a good scoop of that stuff in you FV, mix it up and get in there with a clean, soft cloth. Clean every inch of the inside (it doesn't take long).
Afterwards, give it a thorough rinse (I used a hosepipe outside). It will be squeaky clean and ready for sanitising. :thumb:
Edit: re using too much. It's only a problem if leaving it to soak - e.g. removing bottle labels or cleaning really stubborn, dried-on gak. In that instance I'd probably use about half the amount. For cleaning a recently used FV though, you won't need to leave it to soak.
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Cheers lads, it's on the shopping list.
