Water hardness at 427ppm

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Fore

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My water report shows hardness at 427 ppm. After a bit of reading round, I haven't come across anyone who quotes such a high figure. I know it's pretty hard as when we recently replaced the heating element in our water boiler, we removed two buckets of calcium deposits. I live in Alsace by the way.

At first I thought about filtering, but then I read that boiling achieves similar. I guess my choice would come down to cost and ease. Argos sells Brita Maxtra x12 at 2.50 each (not available at time of writing), and each should be good for 3-4 brews, so about 63-83p a brew. My best estimate for bringing 35 litres to the boil and holding it 10 minutes is about 37p (8p/kWh), or 21p after 22:00 (5p/kWh). So it seems that boiling might be the way to go. Buying bottled water seems a bit more expensive.

Am I on the right track with this or is there something I'm missing?
 
If you boil it won't you have to deal with the calcium deposit left behind on whatever you boil it in? Might be worth considering the extra work and a little expense of dealing with that too.
 
Hardness isn't necessarily a problem but alkalinity is. This is why Burton makes great pale ales. Have you tested the alkalinity?
 
Why not dilute your water with distilled/RO water to reduce it?

But I agree with rpt it is the residule alkalinity you want to know. When you are boiling it you are getting calcium carbonate being depositied which will obviously affect you Ca levels which may need adjusted as a result.
 
Thanks. My water report does state a PH of 7.4, and from what I can tell, this is also quite a high starting point for brewers. So with this and the hardness, I'm expecting mash PH problems, but I do intend to test.

Please consider I'm not even started with my first mash yet, so just search easy preparation to avoid obvious problem. So would just adding Lactic Acid be a reasonable step if I did find my mash PH to be too high? I ask just so I can have some at hand that first time if it is the agreed easy method; you get the idea. I don't know of any easy local access to RO water that would be cheap, so prefer to try and remidy this with things I have to hand or can obtain easily.

P.S. got my eye on a Buffalo boiler with hidden element, so hope that calcium deposit removal is as easy as a quick soak in lemon juice (or the same powder I use to descale my coffee machine).
 
pH of your water is irrelevant as it will have little effect on the mash pH. Get yourself a Salifert alkalinity test kit off ebay and use it every brew. It's only about £7 and will last 100 brews.

I clean my Buffalo boiler with a teaspoon of citric acid (which is what a lot of kettle descalers are made from) in 2 kettles full of boiling water.
 
Thanks. I do intend to test my mash PH (narrow band strips or Salifert, not decided yet), and I'll add Lactic Acid to my order as a precautionary purchase. I'm assuming the mash will offer the correct reading immediately after stirring in the grain (i.e. it doesn't need to sit for a while).

In respect to the hardness, I'm a bit ahead of myself here, but I might brew 2 identical beers, one with boiled racked water and one with non-treated, and compare the taste of the final product. Pale Ales are my preferred tipple, so if hard water is good enough for Burton, it's probably good enough for me.
 
I'm going to throw some words of caution in here. This will come across as a bit fatuous but what the heck.

"Unless you understand water chemistry, don't offer people advice based on what you do with your water, for your beers." It may, probably will, be wholly inappropriate for another brewer based in a completely different area of the country, with a completely different water profile, and a completely different requirement to you.

Now for the second fatuous statement "Unless you are brewing consistently good beers with a minimum of water treatment, don't bother going any further" Seriously, there are a lot more fundamental things to get right first, before water treatment will make a significant difference to the end result. (unless you live in certain regions and want to brew at the extreme ends of beer styles)

Now for the third fatuous statement "If you are going to ask questions about water treatment, try and learn the terms that are used so that you can follow the discussion" . . . . .

Here we go

Hardness This is the level of calcium and magnesium ions in the water. you need a minimum of 50-60ppm of calcium for the brewing processes, in the mash fermenter and storage, and magnesium is an important element for enzyme function, but you only need ~5ppm. These levels can be supplied by the malt, and most water supplies in the UK have an adequate level as they stand. Hardness is GOOD for Brewing

Alkalinity. This is the level of bicarbonate and carbonate ions in the water. Alkalinity buffers the pH of the mash (and subsequent steps) and prevents it from falling in the proper range of 5.2-5.7 (mash - measured 10 minutes after the start). A high pH can cause the extraction of tannins and other compounds from the grain which can cause astringency and hazes. Alkalinity is BAD for brewing

Generally, but not always - Burton is a prime example, hardness and alkalinity go hand in hand, if you have hard water you have a high level of alkalinity. Another degree f confusion is also added into the mix by the water companies (and other water labs) who adopted the convention of reporting hardness and alkalinity as if it were contributed wholly by calcium carbonate "as CaCO3" if you have a hardness value on your water report you cannot use it as your alkalinity, they are two completely separate things that are reported (for the sake of convention) as if they are the same thing. Don't get sucked in, If you see "Hardness as CaCO3" on your report ignore it. Stick your fingers in your ears and say very loudly "LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA, LA" over and over again until you forget all about it.

Get an alkalinity test kit and use it each and every time you brew

pH. The level of hydrogen ions in the water, this really has no bearing on brewing, so is best ignored as far as water treatment is concerned. It has a bearing on enzyme performance in the mash, but cannot really be adequately measured using pH strips, as the acids in the mash swap the indicators used on the strips.

Simple water treatment can be described as follows - assuming you have water with a reasonable amount of hardness and a moderate alkalinity level.

  • Remove Chlorine - Nice and simple one, if you can smell chlorine when you run your cold tap at full bore into a bowl in the sink you need to treat your water. . . . You may decide to treat it anyway as a precaution. The simplest solution is to use a campden tablet, and simply crush this into the HLT or Boiler before you fill it. One campden tablet will treat 17UK Gallons at a chlorine level of up to 3ppm
    [/*:m:1pprmh22]
  • Reduce Alkalinity - As a generalisation, the paler the beer the lower the alkalinity needs to be to allow the mash pH to fall into the correct range. Lagers need something like 10-20ppm and stouts like 100-125ppm. So how can you reduce it?
    • Boiling breaks up the hydrogen carbonate ion driving off of carbon dioxide, and precipitates calcium carbonate. Particularly effective if you add a tsp of gypsum or calcium chloride before boiling . . . you need to let it cool and rack off the chalk before using . . . Don't forget to measure the alkalinity once you have boiled it, so that you know it's beef effective enough.[/*:m:1pprmh22]
    • Adding an Acid The hydrogen ions from the acid react with the bicarbonate ion to produce water and carbon dioxide which is driven off when you heat the liquor for the mash. The reaction is pretty much instantaneous and does not require any input of energy. Pretty much any acid can be used, however, some are more flavour neutral than others. Hydrochloric, Sulphuric, and, some authors include, phosphoric are very flavour neutral. Lactic, Citric et al have a flavour profile that will transfer through to the beer. As little as 6ml of 75% lactic leaves an obvious 'infected' flavour in 50L of pilsner. As long as you are only reducing the alkalinity by a small amount in dark beers then any acid can be used, as you start reducing the alkalinity further then you have to consider which acids are appropriate. CRS or AMS is a mix of sulphuric and hydrochloric acids which give a fixed ratio of sulphate and chloride in the liquor. This may or may not be what you want in your beer, and may well make it impossible to hit the desired mineral profile without adding an excess of calcium salts, so again is really only appropriate for moderate alkalinity reduction.[/*:m:1pprmh22]
    Any good water treatment calculator will tell you how much acid to use to reduce your measured alkalinity, always add 2/3rd's of the acid you get told, measure the alkalinity again and then add the final amount. Ofttimes it appears that the acid strengths reported on the container are not what is actually inside, and you don not want to be over or under treating your water.
    [/*:m:1pprmh22]
  • Adjust Calcium levelsYou do this by adding calcium salts of the 'flavour' ions. The two prime flavour ions are sulphate, which increases the perception of hop bitterness and palate dryness, and chloride, which increases the perception of maltiness and palate fullness/roundness. If aiming for a hoppy pale beer then you need to add calcium sulphate (gypsum), if you are brewing a dark malty mild then use calcium chloride. If your calcium (hardness) level is already high, then you need to be careful about adding more, and should consider diluting your water before you start to allow you to get the sulphate:chloride balance where you want it.[/*:m:1pprmh22][/list:u:1pprmh22]

    If the OP's Hardness is truly that high (420ppm) then he needs to take a combination of approaches. Firstly dilution using either RO water, available from a decent aquarist retailer, or a bottled water of known LOW alkalinity like Tesco Ashbeck or Asda Smartprice. at a ration of 1:1. This will reduce everything in the water by half its value, and means that the amount of acid needed to reduce the alkalinity needed for the beer will be much lower and using the appropriate acid below any flavour threshold. I don't think that boiling is going to be that effective and surmise that a large amount of the hardness is permanent hardness (calcium combined with sulphate Ala Burton and Munich) rather than temporary hardness. While boiling will reduce any temporary hardness present (not eliminate) it will not touch the permanent hardness, which means the only effective way of reducing the hardness (and sulphate levels) is through dilution.
 
Aleman said:
I'm going to throw some words of caution in here. This will come across as a bit fatuous but what the heck.

I'm at about 300pppm and high ph (7.7ph)

Had been thinking about CRC, but I prefer the idea of adding 50% ashbeck water. I'll try that first...
 
Excellent post Tony :thumb:

I have been meaning to get more clued up on water treatment, this is a great start, written clearly so simpleton like me can understand :lol:
 
Just bookmarked this topic following that info from Aleman. :cheers:

I'm in the very early stages of planning to move into AG brewing and was researching my water quality only yesterday. The info I got was a bit (a lot!!) confusing to say the least!!

This has helped me out a lot. Thanks! :cheers:
 
Tough love, but true words, Aleman. In a couple of paragraphs, it provides great basic advice. Brewers that heed it, will do well. When you've mastered those facets, you might consider finer points.

For now, understanding what is in your water is the first step. The second step is performing the minimal treatment necessary to bring the mash and wort pH into a desirable range. The third step might be changing the 'flavor' aspects of your brewing water. The first two steps are necessary. The third step is optional.
 
Calcium     32 mg/l
Magnesium       2 mg/l
Sodium  7 mg/l
Potassium       0.7 mg/l
Nitrate         3 mg/l
Chloride        9 mg/l
Sulphate        42 mg/l
Carbonates      54.06 mg/l
Dry residue     160 mg/l
pH. 6.5 - 7.5

A nice detailed reply Aleman!

I am wondering, in terms of this profile, does this look like it would be a good "all rounder " to mash with? It's an asda smart price water report. I was thinking the calcium looks a little low?
 
Asda Smartprice is a good water to start with . . They must bottle it near me as it's very close to what comes out of my tap :D.

Alkalinity in terms of carbonates (at the pH of 6.5 to 7.5 it's all present as hydrogen carbonate anyway :roll:), is perhaps borderline for pale ales and lagers where an ideal would be ~30ppm (perhaps less for pilsners and other pale lagers)

As you say calcium is a little low the minimum is considered to be 50-60ppm, but you have to consider that malt will provide calcium, which should be sufficient . . . personally I have found that if I don't add calcium then I do get issues with poor yeast flocculation and beers that are slow to clear compared to beers where I do increase the calcium to ~100ppm

Asda Smartprice and 1tsp of gypsum / calcium chloride in the mash and another in the boil will produce a pretty good result for a good range of beer styles . . . . perhaps not quite ideal for stouts but not insanely wrong either
 
Cheers again for the tip top info :thumb:

I often do as you recommend with the gypsum, although strangely not with my latest APA with 200g of late additions. I read somewhere, that with so many late hop additions not to add gypsum .. perhaps so it doesn't increase the perceived bitterness of the beer?
 
When I added AMS yesterday I forgot to retest. So today I just did a 1l test and got 79.5 as caco3 and in 1l I added 0.3ml of AMS and retested. It was 45 as caco3. Is this right and should I use the amounts which come out the calculator.
 
0.3ml of AMS/CRS should reduce the alkalinity by 183 * 0.3 or 59ppm so starting with 79 you should have ended up with 20 not 45 . . . At least you didn't over acidify 43 would be fine for a Pale ale anyway.

You can test your acid strength as follows

Weigh 10L into a container, measure the alkalinity
add 1ml of your acid
. . . stir well . . .measure the alkalinity.

For AMS /CRS you should have removed a total of 183 mg of alkalinity. work out what you removed (reading 2 - reading 1)

If you have removed a different amount than change the value suggested by the calculator by multiplying it by (Your amount Removed /183)
 
Before retesting I have worked out that what I removed would have been 115mg not 183mg.
How well does it need stirring to mix well as I have a feeling this may have been a problem. I used the syringe to mix for maybe 10seconds at most.
Cheers
 

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