What if some people are genetically unable to perceive astringency,

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peterpiper

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Are some people just genetically unable (through polymorphisms in their TAS2R38 gene) to perceive astringency, from tannins in (their) beer, or do they just like it?
And is this why, ideas on best way to use Black Malt, vary so much, and why we get astringent commercial beers?
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When I started AG brewing, on borrowed equipment, my first few batches were amber ales (like Old Speckled Hen). But I kept thinking they were too bitter (though other tasters all reckoned they were great beers), so kept nudging the BU/GU down (to 0.56) without it helping much.

Now, with own equipment, & busy trying other beer styles. Many with much higher IBU (and higher BU/GU), now all taste fine (to me).
So I'm now wondering if astringincy, rather than bitterness, was the original issue. And those who liked the beers, just don't perceive astringency.

In first brews, on borrowed equipment (under guidance). I didn't adjust mash (or sparge) ph, and the sparge water came straight from a boiling kettle. Maybe that was the mistake.
Now thinking, I should revisit my early recipes.

https://rucore.libraries.rutgers.edu/rutgers-lib/67595/
"It is widely accepted that astringency is mainly caused when salivary proteins are precipitated by polyphenols in the mouth. Individual differences in the perception of astringency are well known but not well-understood. Sensitivity to the bitter compound, 6-n-propylthiouracil (PROP), controlled by polymorphisms in the TAS2R38 gene, has been observed to associate with differences in perception and liking for astringency".

https://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/
"Having had the fortune of tasting at least a hundred different samples of NEIPAs over the past few years, both commercial and homebrew, my biggest recurring complaint in some of the beers is a harsh finish. I think it’s best described as a vegetal bitterness that I would compare to taking a sample straight off of a tank loaded with dry hops. The astringency of the finish in some of these beers, likely caused by an excessive amount of polyphenols..."
"Study that examined unmalted oats (not flour) looked at the impact of replacing barley with oats and the impact on total polyphenol content in the beer from the grain. The authors found that as the oats increased as a percentage of the grist, the polyphenols decreased. Specifically, when 20% barley was swapped with unmalted oats there was a 30% reduction in polyphenols and when 40% barley was swapped with unmalted oats there was a 45% reduction in polyphenols.13Combining the two studies, you can see that brewing with oat flour could decrease the total protein in the beer and decrease the total polyphenols, hopefully leading to less permanent haze due to the binding of the two. For those sensitive to high polyphenol beers, perhaps large amounts of oats might also be a way to still dry hop heavily but with less of the harshness due to lower amount of polyphenols being contributed from the n malt".
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@peterpiper: You'll not get an answer, because you're talking to a group of people predominantly unable, not to perceive, but simply understand, there's a big difference 'tween bitterness and astringency.

Not you! You've even linked an article discussing a (assumed) mechanism behind "astringency":

astringency is mainly caused when salivary proteins are precipitated by polyphenols in the mouth

Nearly everyone blanked out that statement when they read it.

Having said that, I haven't the answer to your question. I'd say "no"? You'd need a generic defect that interfered with your ability to "feel", And I imagine such a defect would have somewhat wider implications. But some people are definitely more (or less) sensitive to touch so would be more (or less) sensitive to astringency?

[EDIT: In the mouth, the sensation of astringency is like the flesh in your mouth is "creeping". Not really surprising, the flesh in your mouth really is "creeping"! On your chin a barber uses "astringents" to stem bleeding 'cos he nicked you while shaving. I don't think your body can change the physical reaction of protein to "astringents" (denatures them?) but how much you feel this happening may well be different from one person to the next.]
 
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You'll not get an answer, because you're talking to a group of people predominantly unable, not to perceive, but simply understand, there's a big difference 'tween bitterness and astringency.
How many members didn't read past 'tween bitterness and astringency. above :D
 
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@peterpiper: You'll not get an answer, because you're talking to a group of people predominantly unable, not to perceive, but simply understand, there's a big difference 'tween bitterness and astringency.

Not you! You've even linked an article discussing a (assumed) mechanism behind "astringency":



Nearly everyone blanked out that statement when they read it.

Having said that, I haven't the answer to your question. I'd say "no"? You'd need a generic defect that interfered with your ability to "feel", And I imagine such a defect would have somewhat wider implications. But some people are definitely more (or less) sensitive to touch so would be more (or less) sensitive to astringency?

[EDIT: In the mouth, the sensation of astringency is like the flesh in your mouth is "creeping". Not really surprising, the flesh in your mouth really is "creeping"! On your chin a barber uses "astringents" to stem bleeding 'cos he nicked you while shaving. I don't think your body can change the physical reaction of protein to "astringents" (denatures them?) but how much you feel this happening may well be different from one person to the next.]

So if I understand correctly unlike people who like sprouts (like me) don’t have a receptor for the off flavour chemical, the sensation of astringency is a chemical reaction which will always occur. Right ?
 
My wife can't detect it, I've had a few batches over the years with mild astringency and I've given them her to drink as she said she can't detect it. I would have chucked them down the drain.

I've got a mate who occasionally brews and always says his brews are too bitter and yeasty, whereas they taste fine to me. I guess we've all got slightly different tastes.
 
So if I understand correctly unlike people who like sprouts (like me) don’t have a receptor for the off flavour chemical, the sensation of astringency is a chemical reaction which will always occur. Right ?
That pretty much covers it.

I rant because I'm bored of people going on about the taste of "astringency" when it isn't a "taste". I can't help ranting when I see the word "astringent", even when it's mentioned in a post that is understanding "astringency" - but note I'd also answered the question to the best of my ability (but made it clear it was an opinion, not a fact, being shared).

Bitter taste and the sensation of astringency often occur together, hence the confusion? It's easier to understand if you get examples of astringency without the masking flavour of bitterness. I reckon eating a sloe should do that (they are not bitter ... flippin' astringent though!). Of beer, I think the best illustration I had was an amber ale. A real Amber ale containing Amber Malt. No darkly roasted grains to confuse with. Amber malt isn't "bitter". But use too much and it is hellish astringent!

"Sprouts" aren't astringent either, but as you say, some people don't like the taste, and they did often used to taste bitter too; but that taste is being successfully bred out of them.



Now you've got the jist, do answer @peterpiper's query, he's been waiting since Saturday for people to notice his question. ;)
 
I would not know if it kicked me in the bowlocks, can someone who can discribe it for me
If you stop taking sugar in your tea it will take approximately 2 weeks to become accustomed to the bitterness tea provides. If you are getting astringency in your beers then again it will take approximately 2 weeks to become accustomed to the bitterness. Even enjoying it. I was in a bar the IPA was reduced by a couple of dollars I had a pint and told the barman it was astringent, his reply was why do you think it is cheap. Being used to the astringent beers I produced while performing 'no chill' I carried on and enjoyed a trip back down memory lane drinking the astringent IPA.
 
Absolutely.
Tastes are very hard to describe and works really well if you are taught. Hence the popularity of wine/beer tasting courses. Tastes are given as examples and then you sometimes still need a bit of imagination.
Bitter dark chocolate but not the chocolate flavour.
Wine called dry... a good chablis is astringent, it makes your mouth flush with saliver.
Often called "grippy tannins" coats your mouth.

Very subjective and unique to the individual.. But like Brussels (& Bruges 🙂)
 
Astringent - Wikipedia



Unfortunately, that article mentions "bitter" once, but talking about something that is very bitter "to the taste". Was a quite unnecessary remark and shouldn't have been included.

Remember, you can feel astringency anywhere in your mouth. You taste bitterness only on your tongue. Neither are pleasant in excess, and both evolved to communicate "I don't want to be eaten" or "I'm not ripe yet". And, in animals, "that's poisonous!".

@foxy repeatedly mixes up bitter and astringent in his post above, but I think he's probably doing it on purpose only to be antagonistic?

@peterpiper: Sorry to have derailed your post, but can you see why I did it ... how were you going to sort out the "wheat" answers from the "chaff" ones?
 
@DocAnna, are you offended too 🙂👍
No. I reckon I can answer for her because she, above many others around here, will have a clue what I'm babbling about (if anyone can understand a word of what I babble on about that is? But at least I have a medical excuse for being incomprehensible and perhaps she does understand that? 🤪). 👍 ... 🫸🤞✌️🫰🤟🤘👌🤌🤏🫳🫴👈👉👆👇(HELP!!! ... get these flippin' things off me ... )
 
I'm pretty sure your taste receptors change over time too.
As a youth I used to drink & enjoy cider, but in the last 10 years or so, it increasingly all just tastes the same to me.
(Even cider I brew myself - so I am much more dependent on others to do my quality control now)

Its got to the stage where if I want some cider in the summer I might just as well get 2l of bus stop special rather than shell out on a West country special.
 
I also have no idea what astringency is and suspect no amount of words would leave me any the wiser.
That's half of it. And maybe similar to trying to describe music or sounds, that someone can't hear, in words. Maybe ultrasonic bat 'cheep' patterns (to anyone), a high pitched dog whistle (to the elderly), or Beethoven to a someone born deaf.

A simple hearing test, can tell us what out hearing limitations are.
But there's no simple 'taste' / 'mouthfeel' test, that measures sensitivity. And even if there was, there'snstill no telling why some combinations seem nice to one person, but discusting to another.

I wasn't really hoping for a definite reply. More interested if theres much awareness, of whether comments about astringincy, can be trusted.
 
I'm pretty sure your taste receptors change over time too.
As a youth I used to drink & enjoy cider, but in the last 10 years or so, it increasingly all just tastes the same to me.
(Even cider I brew myself - so I am much more dependent on others to do my quality control now)

Its got to the stage where if I want some cider in the summer I might just as well get 2l of bus stop special rather than shell out on a West country special.

Tesco does a fantastic Italian one in mini Prosecco-like bottles. Angioletti it's called.
 
Does this taste thing also run alongside smell?
I have a very heightened sense of smell which sometimes drives me mad as I can detect things others can't...or so it seems!
 
I also have no idea what astringency is and suspect no amount of words would leave me any the wiser.
Suck on a wet used teabag is the nearest I can get to describe it. It makes your cheeks pucker when it is astringent.
 

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