Crushing your own grain.

Are we saying that Mutton, Crisp, Fawcetts, Dingmanns et al, aren't consistent?

Mr & Mrs Smith said:

Cost doesn't come into it, more about full control of your brewing.

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I get where you are coming from. But in the UK that's just a rationalization for "just fancy a mill".

Cost always comes into it, when quality crushed grain is available practically free in the UK. Where as the cost of a quality mill (in grain) is in the region of 2000 bottles of beer.
If I got the grain for free, mills are still the significant cost, and would require brewing 250kg of grain. Yes ¼ of a ton to break even.

@Sadfield Of course we are Have you not learned anything from this forum.

foxy said:

For a HBS to crush fine is asking for trouble, fine is only for the BIAB. Baron, did you buy crushed grain when using the brew Devil?
I have noticed that if I put say 200 grams through the mill to check the crush when I fill the hopper with 3 kg, the crush comes out finer than the test batch. Using a three-roller mill I use solder to check the gap as feeler gauges are difficult to get to the third roller. Though I have the increments on the adjusting knobs they don't relate to the gap accurately.
I agree with @MashBag Grainfather mill looks the business the Blichmann is way over the top for a home brew setup

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Yes I did Foxy but I did notice a difference in crush from different suppliers on the Ace.
It does affect the mashing and I think is more critical on the Gen4 being of a taller narrower profile.
I have bought a mill to do my own but still have plenty of crushed to use first

Just a thought.

Prolly another thread

If someone built a brand new car that didn't run well on forecourt petrol, would we....

A) put up with it popping & farthing along

B) declare the car was not fit for purpose.

C) at considerable extra cost, install a petrol converter unit

The Baron said:

Yes I did Foxy but I did notice a difference in crush from different suppliers on the Ace.
It does affect the mashing and I think is more critical on the Gen4 being of a taller narrower profile.
I have bought a mill to do my own but still have plenty of crushed to use first

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That was my thoughts, seems that those buying the Brewzilla G4 are having to invest in a grain mill to get the BZ4 to work somewhat as intended.

Well you could say the car was ok but people were not using the right octane of fuel(crush)

The Baron said:

Well you could say the car was ok but people were not using the right octane of fuel(crush)

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Nope sorry, the car manufacturer never mentioned high octane fuel for the family car.

As you said wrong thread go to the Gen4 thread plenty to choose from as it is taking it off topic

The Baron said:

As you said wrong thread go to the Gen4 thread plenty to choose from as it is taking it off topic

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See what you did there

MashBag said:

See what you did there

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The pen is mightier than the sword

Sadfield said:

Are we saying that Mutton, Crisp, Fawcetts, Dingmanns et al, aren't consistent?

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Controllability would maybe have been a better word.

Hmm. I am always left with a feeling that if the system doesn't work with industry standards grains produced in 1000's of tons, perhaps it is not the grain at fault.

MashBag said:

Hmm. I am always left with a feeling that if the system doesn't work with industry standards grains produced in 1000's of tons, perhaps it is not the grain at fault.

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I was speaking more generally.

It's a fair question why some systems haven't been designed to work optimally with a standard, commercially available crush. Nearly as rediculous as some toasters that don't accommodate a standard sized slice of bread.

If you have one of those systems then milling your own is a reasonable solution. Also, valid is milling your own just because you can.

What I don't get is the psuedo justification that a superior, more consistent crush can be had over that of the maltsters, or MM and GEB, by conditioning in a bucket and using £100 mill and black and decker drill.

Sadfield said:

It's a fair question why some systems haven't been designed to work optimally with a standard, commercially available crush. Nearly as rediculous as some toasters that don't accommodate a standard sized slice of bread.

If you have one of those systems then milling your own is a reasonable solution. Also, valid is milling your own just because you can.

What I don't get is the psuedo justification that a superior, more consistent crush can be had over that of the maltsters, or MM and GEB, by conditioning in a bucket and using £100 mill and black and decker drill.

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A superior crush will be had with conditioning grains, probably something the users of the BZ G4 should bear in mind and it is something that the homebrew shops can't match.
There are a number of methods carried out by brewers, spray steep roller milling, steep conditioning. and milling underwater.
Homebrewers generally use conditioned dry milling for the best result.

Brewing Science and Practice
5.6 Conditioned dry milling
In mashing and the subsequent separation of the wort from the spent grains, in mash tuns or lauter tuns, it is desirable that husk materials should be as nearly intact as possible, but with dry milling this is difficult to achieve while comminuting the endosperm tissue to an adequate extent. The problem is largely due to the extreme brittleness of the dry husk. The ideal arrangement for preparing most grists would be to be able to mill malt with damp, flexible husks but with dry, brittle interiors. To a degree this is achieved by conditioning malt by briefly dampening it, wetting the husk with water or steam, before it reaches a conventional `dry' mill (Fig. 5.1). The intention is to mill the treated malt while the husk is damp and flexible but before any moisture reaches the endosperm and reduces its brittleness. A conditioning screw consists of a screw or paddle conveyor working in a heated casing. The moving stream of warm malt may be exposed to low-pressure steam, at 0.5 bar, for 30±60 s. Then, after a 90±120 s equilibration time, the malt is delivered to a six-roll mill. To dry the equipment and minimize corrosion the steam is turned off 5 min. before the last of the malt passes through. Alternatively, and with a lower risk of enzyme inactivation, water at 30 ëC (86 ëF) or, at least, < 40 ëC (104 ëF), is sprayed onto the malt and then, after a one-minute equilibration period, the malt enters the mill. The moisture content of the husk is increased by 1.5±1.7%. The dampened husk is more flexible and survives milling better and the volume of the husk sieve fraction is increased by 20±30%. Dry milled grist volumes are 500±700 ml/100 g while the volumes of conditioned milled grists are 700±1000 ml/100 g. The volumes of the spent grains are also increased. The mill gaps need to be set closer to obtain the best extract from conditioned malt. The run-off rate is increased by conditioning and lauter tuns may be loaded more deeply using a mash made with conditioned malt as the bed density is reduced and its porosity is increased (Narziss, 1992; Stoscheck, 1988; Sugden, et al., 1999;

Wilkinson, 2001). It is also said that conditioning gives a better yield of extract, better attenuation, and faster saccharification. To prevent clogging dust must be completely removed from the malt before it reaches the conditioning screw and this and the adjacent pieces of equipment must be cleaned regularly

Mr & Mrs Smith said:

A superior crush will be had with conditioning grains, probably something the users of the BZ G4 should bear in mind and it is something that the homebrew shops can't match.

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Rubbish. They can do it as easily as homebrewers can, if they want to. A 1-2 minute application of steam, job done. The offset is they likely have better quality milling equipment. If they are selling precrushed by the maltsters, as many do, they certainly will do.

Sadfield said:

Rubbish. They can do it as easily as homebrewers can, if they want to. A 1-2 minute application of steam, job done. The offset is they likely have better quality milling equipment. If they are selling precrushed by the maltsters, as many do, they certainly will do.

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You can always ask if Malt Miller will condition the grains before putting them through the mill. If he has a decent mill they will be hardened steel rollers, not something he would like to get wet. The other obstacle is storing slightly damp grains in a closed plastic bag before shipping.

Does anyone have a HBS that they know crushes, or are they all resellers of precrushed?

All five HBS near me crush the grain.
One doesn't sell the Brewzilla 4.x as too many problems.
None of them conditions the grain pre crush.