Yeast Starters

[Braufather]

My first ever Stir plate arrived today so i thought i better get up to speed with best practise here, and as always with brewing no simple answers and opinion is split! in the past when ive used liquid ive just chucked it in, or if making a starter have had no specific regime.

It seems some swear by putting it on the stir plate for 2 days, letting it ferment out completely before cold crashing then pouring off the wort before pitching. I like the sound of this, very simple to follow and adopt into a regular regime. Not worried about the preparation time as such as I'm quite happy to use dry yeast for more spontaneous brews and planned ones also.

But then others dismiss this saying the starter needs to be pitching at peak fermentation ( or something like that, i started to drift off before the finer details!). This is likely after 24/36 hours or so as i understand it but sure how do you measure this? and wasn't sure if you could still cold crash with this method?

are there other methods? does it depend on yeast)

so, what has been working for Forum members? i like the idea of putting it on the stir plate for a standard certain time, cold crash, pour off wort then pitch., so im hoping this has got a lot of proponents!

( for the record - , i wont be reusing yeast or over building starters, this will be a fresh pack in a one litre starter each time and be mostly the many variations of IPA, pale and amber/red ales ( at least for the foreseeable future anyway),

 

[foxbat]

My routine is to make the starter 5 days before brew day. 2-3 days later when it's fermented out I'll take it off the stir plate, decant off the overbuild for next time (which you're not doing) and then cold crash it until brew day. It'll be all settled then and I can pour off the spent 'beer', taste it to make sure it's not sour then pitch the yeast.

 

[Braufather]

My routine is to make the starter 5 days before brew day. 2-3 days later when it's fermented out I'll take it off the stir plate, decant off the overbuild for next time (which you're not doing) and then cold crash it until brew day. It'll be all settled then and I can pour off the spent 'beer', taste it to make sure it's not sour then pitch the yeast.

sounds straight forward enough

 

[Braufather]

That‘s unanimous then!

100 percent for pitching after the starter has fully fermented out then!

 

[peebee]

Unanimous? I'll have to spoil that! Only because "I can".

There is no need to wait until it is fully fermented out. The key word being "fermented". You've no need to wait for most of the yeast to have moved into "fermenting" mode, the purpose of the starter is "grow" not "ferment". It'll have plenty of time to do the fermenting bit in the beer wort.

Though I admit I will wait for bubbles in the last starter step, or even take a refractometer reading to show the gravity is dropping (for which you need the starting gravity for that step). Those indicators are only for peace of mind and will likely indicate the starter has had too long. But whatever, it's all a bit of guessing at end of day. Note when there is fermentation, growing won't necessarily stop; there's no clear demarcation between all n billion yeast cells being exclusively in grow mode or ferment mode.

But leaving the starter too long (fermenting vigorously) can risk the starter foaming over and making a bit of a mess.

 

[Braufather]

So I am right in thinking letting it ferment out is the safest option even if not the absolute optimum?
Or would you split the difference and pitch at maybe 36 hours or high Krausen? Or cold crash at high Krausen? I take it you still cold crash to separate and discard the wort?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

My first ever Stir plate arrived today so i thought i better get up to speed with best practise here, and as always with brewing no simple answers and opinion is split! in the past when ive used liquid ive just chucked it in, or if making a starter have had no specific regime.

It seems some swear by putting it on the stir plate for 2 days, letting it ferment out completely before cold crashing then pouring off the wort before pitching. I like the sound of this, very simple to follow and adopt into a regular regime. Not worried about the preparation time as such as I'm quite happy to use dry yeast for more spontaneous brews and planned ones also.

But then others dismiss this saying the starter needs to be pitching at peak fermentation ( or something like that, i started to drift off before the finer details!). This is likely after 24/36 hours or so as i understand it but sure how do you measure this? and wasn't sure if you could still cold crash with this method?

are there other methods? does it depend on yeast)

so, what has been working for Forum members? i like the idea of putting it on the stir plate for a standard certain time, cold crash, pour off wort then pitch., so im hoping this has got a lot of proponents!

( for the record - , i wont be reusing yeast or over building starters, this will be a fresh pack in a one litre starter each time and be mostly the many variations of IPA, pale and amber/red ales ( at least for the foreseeable future anyway),

One of the things I love about the forum is that people ask the questions I need myself :-)

 

[Braufather]

One of the things I love about the forum is that people ask the questions I need myself :-)

i was hoping you might have an answer

 

[Cheshire Cat]

To get the answer you need to understand the question.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

To get the answer you need to understand the question.

 

[Braufather]

To get the answer you need to understand the question.

42?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

As you said @Braufather opinions vary - so here's mine (but I've only done a couple of starters so don't count me an expert).

I like to let the starter ferment away until the foam dies down and the yeast starts to fall out of solution (on a stir-plate it starts to look slightly coagulated, and if you switch off the stirrer then it quickly sediments out). Then I fridge it overnight to get the liquid as clear as possible, before carefully pouring off the excess.

The question that's always struck me though is whether I'm pouring away live yeast in the 'clear' water; and the 'sludge' I'm carefully adding is mostly dead yeast.

My fear is that by doing a starter I'm actually going from a population of very healthy first-gen yeast cells out of the pouch, to a supposedly larger population of cells that are a bit knackered...

 

[Alastair70]

I mostly do what @foxbat does, but if it’s the last pitch of a yeast batch or there was a second step to the starter then I’ll do what @peebee does. Both are fine, the advantage of pitching yeast on its way up is that fermentation kicks off really quickly.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

I'd like to pitch it on the way up, but I'm always worried about the timing

 

[peebee]

So I am right in thinking letting it ferment out is the safest option even if not the absolute optimum?
Or would you split the difference and pitch at maybe 36 hours or high Krausen? Or cold crash at high Krausen? I take it you still cold crash to separate and discard the wort?

I wouldn't say "safest option". But you might consider it the best option to avoid chucking in a completely placid yeast starter and hoping for the best.

As for "cold crashing" (yak, I still hate that term); yes, I do! But there's a bit of "guess work" in that too, and I have over done it (decanted off a good proportion of good cells too).

I wish I knew the perfect solution to creating yeast starters, but I don't. Be satisfied that the yeast will do its damnedest to survive and all you have to do is assist as best you can and keep things clean (i.e. don't chuck in a placid foul-smelling starter and hope for the best). You soon build up a technique you're happy with. Like I use the Homebrew Dad calculator and progressively more steps (I'll use up to 4 steps over 4 days) depending on the age of the culture and the reputation of the yeast (some are notorious bad starters). If you use calculators remember they are probably American and will steer you towards very large starters (which you might want! I tend to aim for 0.6-0.75 million/(ml x °P) pitch rate - geesh! - a figure I grasped blindly out of the air).

Or stick to dry yeasts! Always have an "emergency" dry backup, although I've never had to use mine.

The most important advice is (to pinch a catch phrase from elsewhere): "Don't lose sleep over it". (Humm, I'll have to remember that one when I create my next starter).

 

[Neil Whittaker]

Could I tag an extra question/s onto this thread?

Made lots of ale starters but...
I'm going to make a starter for my first larger (Helles) , using Fermentis W34/70. Should I adjust down my temperature and get it going a few days early? Is there any special considerations?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Could I tag an extra question/s onto this thread?

Made lots of ale starters but...
I'm going to make a starter for my first larger (Helles) , using Fermentis W34/70. Should I adjust down my temperature and get it going a few days early? Is there any special considerations?

My understanding is that you should ferment a ’lager’ starter at normal room temperature - because the objective is to increase the cell count, not fermentation as such

 

[peebee]

I don't use Lager yeasts, but Fermentis W34/70 is dried. You don't need to make a starter for dried yeast. You might use two packs (high pitch rate to compensate for low temperature ferment) but even that may not be necessary?

 

[MrRook]

My understanding is that you should ferment a ’lager’ starter at normal room temperature - because the objective is to increase the cell count, not fermentation as such

Yeast will happily reproduce at higher temperature than what makes good beer.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

I don't use Lager yeasts, but Fermentis W34/70 is dried. You don't need to make a starter for dried yeast. You might use two packs (high pitch rate to compensate for low temperature ferment) but even that may not be necessary?

Oh very good point @peebee - yes: it's generally not recommended to make a starter for dried yeast (although some people do recommend rehydrating it before use)