Yeast questions

[BruinTuns]

Hi all
I've been researching online for months now in preparation for my first brew (a John Bull IPA kit) but there are still questions to which I can find no answers. I hope it's ok to ask them here.
1) Is yeast either dead or alive, i.e. works 100% or not at all, or can it deteriorate to a point in between? And is there a way to test its effectiveness before pitching?
2) How trustworthy are the little sachets that come with a kit?
3) Any advantage to 'starting' it with water and sugar before pitching?
4) Is there a particularly recommended general purpose ale yeast to keep as a backup (or perhaps even to use for improved results over the kit sachet)?
5) Do I need to add more yeast than comes with the kit if I add extra fermentables?

Sorry for all the questions, hopefully they should be quick and easy to answer for any experienced forum members. When I've gained enough knowledge myself I'll take pleasure in contributing my own answers to confused newbies.
Meantime very grateful for any advice on the above. Thanks in advance.

 

[JAK]

Hi all
I've been researching online for months now in preparation for my first brew (a John Bull IPA kit) but there are still questions to which I can find no answers. I hope it's ok to ask them here.
1) Is yeast either dead or alive, i.e. works 100% or not at all, or can it deteriorate to a point in between? And is there a way to test its effectiveness before pitching?
2) How trustworthy are the little sachets that come with a kit?
3) Any advantage to 'starting' it with water and sugar before pitching?
4) Is there a particularly recommended general purpose ale yeast to keep as a backup (or perhaps even to use for improved results over the kit sachet)?
5) Do I need to add more yeast than comes with the kit if I add extra fermentables?

Sorry for all the questions, hopefully they should be quick and easy to answer for any experienced forum members. When I've gained enough knowledge myself I'll take pleasure in contributing my own answers to confused newbies.
Meantime very grateful for any advice on the above. Thanks in advance.

Hello,

1) Yeasts are generally in various growth stages when your dealing with them for brewing. The packaged yeast you get with kits are in a dormant stage for storage. The lag stage between you pitching and seeing activity is the time it takes for them to wake up and start using the fermentable sugars in your wort. Understanding yeast growth stages is required for harvesting your own yeast and keeping yeast banks - there is a lot of interesting reading about if this is your thing.

2) Not very it seems, you'll find a few complaints on here about kits coming with dead packets of yeast. Even in their storage state they require a decent level of looking after to maintain a viable cell count.

3) Very good idea to hydrate your packaged yeast, this will decrease the lag time from pitching to activity.

4) I typically keep a packet or two spare of Safale S-04 in the fridge. Its a good general purpose yeast which Ive had no problems with keeping in the fridge for a few months until required. When you get into more advanced recipes and AG brewing you'll find that you'll need a specialised yeast to give you a particular flavour profile and/or higher %abv. As far as I know you cant get these in a packet and buy them as a liquid yeast, from which you make a yeast starter to get your viable yeast cell count for pitching.

5) Generally if your following a kit recipe you'll be find with what they suggest. If you pitch a low viable cell count your lag time is higher and could possibly lead to off flavours. With more advanced recipes and especially with liquid yeast you'll want to pitch at a good viable cell count for your fermentables. You'll find loads of online calculators to help you with this.

Cheers

 

[chrisstuarthall]

Other then Better Brew kits (specialised yeast formulation, seems to work they are good kits) I always replace the kit yeast with Safale S-04 or Danstar Nottingham.

These are commercial brewery yeasts and tend to give more consistent results.

Kit sachets tend be only about 5 gms and it is usually better to pitch twice that for a 40 pint brew.

When you pitch your yeast make sure your temperature is at the recommended and ensure you keep the fermentation temperature as constant as you can.

 

[MyQul]

It's a good idea to rehydrate your packet yeast

If your a cheapskate like me wilko's gervin ale yeast for £1.75 is nottingham yeast. Which is a good yeast for AG you don't have to use expensive liquid yeast but to save money if you do, you can harvest yeast from your bottles and do it up to about five times

 

[Fil]

+1 to JAK's comments from me, tho tbh i will usually just sprinkle the dry yeast onto a brew when cool enough

if fascinated by the lil beasties the yeast book by chris white adn Jamil zainasheff is a surprisingly accessible read.
https://wordery.com/yeast-chris-whi...pOeEVhRWc9PQ&gclid=CPWrnd7X38ECFVHMtAodFWEAtw

 

[JAK]

Just to add to this discussion, I've seen a few forums where people have tried to reuse liquid yeast that they buy.. (usually costs around £8 per vial). They do this by collecting from their yeast bed from a finished FV.

I've also seen a few people they have contacted their local microbrewery for yeast. I tend to buy my grain and hops from a local microbrewery, I might ask if they could vial me up some of their yeast bed next time I'm in. Has anyone done this before?

 

[BruinTuns]

Thank you all for the very useful replies. Since posting the question I've done more reading and come across quite a few posts where people say they substitute the kit yeast with their own stock as a matter of course, believing that the supplied sachet will be a cheaper product and possibly stale.
Something else I read (I think this was on an American forum) is that, when adding extra fermentables for more body and/or a higher ABV, it's a good idea to add just malt first, only adding the sugar later in the fermentation.. The idea being that, if sugar and malt are added together, the yeast will eat the sugar first because it's more easily digested. They get used to the sugar and then struggle with the malt, a bit like my daughter when she has access to chips and vegetables on the same plate .
Obviously I have no idea if this is complete twaddle, and I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to teach granny to suck eggs, but I thought the theory at least interesting if possibly wrong.
One other question occurs to me: as yeast is such a vital part of the process, does anyone add a bit extra as a sort of insurance, or is too much as bad as not enough?
And by the way, can anyone give me an idea of forum etiquette re 'liking' each other's posts? ? I've given all your responses a 'like' (of course!) but with so many members who have hundreds of posts behind them and only one or two likes, I get the feeling that it's not taken too seriously..

 

[MyQul]

One other question occurs to me: as yeast is such a vital part of the process, does anyone add a bit extra as a sort of insurance, or is too much as bad as not enough?
..

It's best not to over pitch as you want your yeast to work hard. Use a yeast calculator like MrMalty to pitch the correct amount of yeast

 

[BruinTuns]

"I assume its something like facebook. Also people with a lot of forum likes on their username feel like brewing gods"

I've just seen that I have given 10 'likes', which seems to be about 9.5 more than average!
Think maybe I'd better tone the :clap: down a bit..

I might try splitting the fermentable additions at some point just to see, but I'm sure if there was any real truth in the theory it would be more widely known. I think I'd better get the basics straight before experementing..
Re starting yeast in the same fermentable as the brew, if/when I rehydrate my yeast before pitching should I mix a little brew enhancer with the water? Or open the kit can and use a teaspoon (or more?) of the contents?
I'm thinking that another advantage of starting the yeast first is that I'll know before pitching whether or not it's still good.
How much water should I use? I'm assuming it should be at a similar temperature to what the wort will be fermenting at, i.e. room temp..

MyQul, thanks for the tip. I'll google MrMalty.

Fil, looks like an interesting book if a bit advanced for me at the moment. I'll see if the library have a copy. Doubtful but worth a shot..

 

[MyQul]

"I assume its something like facebook. Also people with a lot of forum likes on their username feel like brewing gods"

I've just seen that I have given 10 'likes', which seems to be about 9.5 more than average!
Think maybe I'd better tone the :clap: down a bit..

I might try splitting the fermentable additions at some point just to see, but I'm sure if there was any real truth in the theory it would be more widely known. I think I'd better get the basics straight before experementing..
Re starting yeast in the same fermentable as the brew, if/when I rehydrate my yeast before pitching should I mix a little brew enhancer with the water? Or open the kit can and use a teaspoon (or more?) of the contents?
I'm thinking that another advantage of starting the yeast first is that I'll know before pitching whether or not it's still good.
How much water should I use? I'm assuming it should be at a similar temperature to what the wort will be fermenting at, i.e. room temp..

MyQul, thanks for the tip. I'll google MrMalty.

Fil, looks like an interesting book if a bit advanced for me at the moment. I'll see if the library have a copy. Doubtful but worth a shot..

From the above It seem like you've conflated what a yeast starter and reydrating your yeast is (unless I've misuderstood you) They're too different different things. reyhdrating - your just using water. Starter - your using malt exctract and pre-growing/fermenting/starting your yeast a few days before brew day

 

[JAK]

"I assume its something like facebook. Also people with a lot of forum likes on their username feel like brewing gods"

I've just seen that I have given 10 'likes', which seems to be about 9.5 more than average!
Think maybe I'd better tone the :clap: down a bit..

I might try splitting the fermentable additions at some point just to see, but I'm sure if there was any real truth in the theory it would be more widely known. I think I'd better get the basics straight before experementing..
Re starting yeast in the same fermentable as the brew, if/when I rehydrate my yeast before pitching should I mix a little brew enhancer with the water? Or open the kit can and use a teaspoon (or more?) of the contents?
I'm thinking that another advantage of starting the yeast first is that I'll know before pitching whether or not it's still good.
How much water should I use? I'm assuming it should be at a similar temperature to what the wort will be fermenting at, i.e. room temp..

MyQul, thanks for the tip. I'll google MrMalty.

Fil, looks like an interesting book if a bit advanced for me at the moment. I'll see if the library have a copy. Doubtful but worth a shot..

I'm sure I've read somewhere that it is a bad idea to try and make a yeast starter from dried yeast, I'm not sure why this is though :wha:

To hydrate your dried yeast take ~ 1 cup of water (I've generally used less TBH) and boil to remove dissolved oxygen and sterilise. Allow to cool with it covered up until it is at room temperature and pitch your yeast into this. Allow to sit in the water for ~15 minutes without stirring. After fifteen minutes give it a good shake and pitch it into your wort.

The general idea of hydrating yeast is to wake them up and get their metabolism going after being dormant in a packet for a long time. The reason why you want to do this outside of your wort is they can have a hard time hydrating in wort due to the huge concentration of sugars present.

Yeast starters is a entirely different method, yeast comes to you in a hydrated state already. You culture the yeast to grow it to a decent cell count to pitch at a good concentration.

Hope this helps a little

 

[dollo12345]

I have put a brew on 4 days ago Coopers lager and decided to try it differently I took 1kg of tate lyle sugar 500gr of muntons medium malt dissolved the sugar in large pan of near boiling water on adding the dme I found it lumping so decided to mix dme in cold water that mixed ok :clap: :clap:
I then added it to the dissolved sugar and gave it a good whisking put into FV and then added kit put a whisking paddle on drill and gave a good whisking frothed to the top of FV :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:.
Let settle a bit added kit yeast within a few hours the airlock was going crazy and is now at 18% and going better than any other brew I have before:clap: :clap:.
The hyrdrometer reading at start 1050 happy if any one can tell me alcahol proof this will be it does seem my best shot :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink:.

 

[BruinTuns]

Ahhh, I see!

MyQul : "From the above It seem like you've conflated what a yeast starter and reydrating your yeast is.."
Yes, I was sort of thinking that rehydrating was basically the same as starting the yeast.

JAK, I'l google around about why dried yeast isn't good to make a starter with, meantime I'll follow your rehydration method.

The reason I thought that "starting" it with a fermentable before pitching was simply to see, from the presence or absence of any activity, whether it was good or dead (I believe useable yeast is called 'viable') ?


So starting is a good idea if one is using already hydrated yeast to boost its cell count? (Btw, what do we call non-dried yeast? Liquid yeast doesn't sound right...

)
Is it ever essential, or especially desirable, to start it before pitching? Or is it just for culturing one's own?

Cheers guys!

Thanks for the continued enlightenment, much appreciated.

dollo12345: re your brew's alcohol content (ABV), I'm not knowledgeable enough to answer you directly but here's a useful and thorough tutorial on using hydrometers which - I think - contains some information on predicting ABV from an OG reading.
EDIT:
I posted a link, but I see it's in the reply as a ready-to-play YouTube screen. Hope I'm not in breach of forum rules..
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTvmYaQq6Mc[/ame]

 

[BruinTuns]

I came across this in a similar thread elsewhere, one of the replies to a similar OP., that I thought might be of interest:

"A kit will most likely come with just enough yeast for its recipe. It's normally safe (recommended even) to pitch a lot of yeast (howtobrew.com). 100 billion yeast cells is almost the minimum for your average 6% abv brews - and 200 billion for 8% plus. Every brewer I know aiming for 7% abv or more will add yeast nutrients to ensure healthy yeast reproduction. Making a proper starter will greatly increase the cell count of your yeast, so instead of buying another yeast packet, make a starter instead".

Your thoughts guys? My first brew is going to be done with extra DME and dextrose..

 

[MyQul]

I came across this in a similar thread elsewhere, one of the replies to a similar OP., that I thought might be of interest:

"A kit will most likely come with just enough yeast for its recipe. It's normally safe (recommended even) to pitch a lot of yeast (howtobrew.com). 100 billion yeast cells is almost the minimum for your average 6% abv brews - and 200 billion for 8% plus. Every brewer I know aiming for 7% abv or more will add yeast nutrients to ensure healthy yeast reproduction. Making a proper starter will greatly increase the cell count of your yeast, so instead of buying another yeast packet, make a starter instead".

Your thoughts guys? My first brew is going to be done with extra DME and dextrose..

non dried yeast is in fact called liquid yeast.

Re the above; I'm of the opinion it is best to pitch the 'correct' amount of yeast as both under and over pitching can have attendant problem. The best way to pitch the 'correct' amount is to use a yeast calculator such as MrMalty.

I've never done a starter but I agree with the above quote, from my reading around the subject it's the best way to go. The reason I have yet to get into starters as at the mo, I'm finding rehyrating my yeast more than adequate plus you have to make your starter a few days before brew day as I already brew twice per week I don't have time to do starters as well

 

[BruinTuns]

Know what you mean. Tons to do and so little time. Thanks for your input MyQul, I'm taking it all in...

 

[BruinTuns]

Got another question that I'll add here rather than start a new thread, hopefully someone who knows will see the 'bump'..
Simply this: does anyone routinely add yeast nutrient to a regular one (or two) can beer kit? And if so, did you notice a difference/ Might this not be a good failsafe practice to adopt?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Forum likes - I have no idea, but that's for the likes anyway! I assume its something like facebook. Also people with a lot of forum likes on their username feel like brewing gods

I have a few but couldn't be further from a brewing god if i tried :lol:

Some forums have "thank you" where we have "like this post" i often give a like if someone takes the time to explain something in full but don't want to spoil the flow of the thread by posting "great post" if i have nothing to add to the thread.

 

[clibit]

A lot of breweries will happily give some yeast to a homebrewer, just take a sterilised bottle or container. It's a great way to get good yeast.

Or you can make a starter with yeast from a bottle conditioned beer.

If you buy a liquid yeast, one way to make life easy (avoid a starter) is to make a 10 litre batch with it and then scoop some yeast into a sterilised container or three at bottling time with a sterilised spoon. I do this a lot.

Yeasts can make a huge difference to your beer. Belgian and German yeasts can dominate a beer's flavour. Sticking to English/American yeasts, as I generally do, some are very neutral, others provide a sweet fruitiness. I use both types. Safbrew S33 and Mauribrew 514 are sweet and fruity, Nottingham/ Gervin and S04 are less flavoured and slightly tart.

S33 does not attenuate very well, it leaves an OG around 1018 in many beers, and I have combined it with Gervin to get the best of both worlds. Great flavour from the S33 and better attenuation from the Gervin, to reduce the sweetness to a level I prefer. S05 is the standard American yeast, very neutral, which means you taste the hops and grains pretty much as they are. Which I also like.

 

[BruinTuns]

"If you buy a liquid yeast, one way to make life easy (avoid a starter) is to make a 10 litre batch with it and then scoop some yeast into a sterilised container or three at bottling time with a sterilised spoon."

Do you mean the sediment from the bottom of the fv? And will it keep in the fridge in the sealed container?

So you've not found any issues with combining different strains? Not that I know about this (!) but it's a question I've asked a couple of times and opinions were divided..