WW3

[Larse]

Mind that Russia wanted to join NATO before and refusal to admit them was interpreted as a threat. Whether Russia interpreted our decision right or wrong - we will never know

I've heard Putin suggesting (this was in the noughties) that Russia might join NATO (I think the context was the Baltic states joining). And there was some cooperation in the 90s. But I never heard of any actual overtures being made to actually join. Have you a reference?

I don't believe I used 'justice and what is right' btw. I was giving it the duck test.

 

[Omega]

This doesn't stack up chronologically. Russia annexed Crimea and invaded "Donbas" in March 2014. Poroshenko didn't become president of Ukraine until June 2014. The delay being the constitutional crisis caused by Yanukovich legging it overnight to Russia which (understandably) hadn't been anticipated by the drafters of the constitution.

Sounds like Russian apologia to me. There's lots of it about.

Here is BBC's article with chart showing the trade volumes between Russia and Ukraine - it dips to the lowest in 2014-2015 before normalising https://www.bbc.com/russian/features-65113156
I would recommend checking against largest Russian companies - Gazprom, Lukoil etc. they started leaving after 2014. Wikipedia is quite good, here is an example about Lukoil:
"In 2014, the company faced a sharp decline in retail sales in Ukraine by 42%, caused by Russian intervention in Ukraine. As a result, the management of Lukoil agreed to sell 100% of its subsidiary Lukoil Ukraine to the Austrian company AMIC Energy Management, which was announced at the end of July 2014.[27][28]
In 2015, it sold its service stations in Estonia and Ukraine, and in 2016, it sold its service stations in Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Cyprus.[30][31][32]"

 

[Omega]

I've heard Putin suggesting (this was in the noughties) that Russia might join NATO (I think the context was the Baltic states joining). And there was some cooperation in the 90s. But I never heard of any actual overtures being made to actually join. Have you a reference?

I don't believe I used 'justice and what is right' btw. I was giving it the duck test.

In a March 2000 interview with the British television journalist David Frost, Putin was asked whether "it is possible Russia could join NATO." Putin, who at the time was serving as acting president and weeks later was elected to his first term, responded, "I don’t see why not."http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/st...eakfast_with_frost/transcripts/putin5.mar.txt
Another https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/russia-could-have-joined-nato-but-why-didn-t-they-do-it-55561
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule

 

[Larse]

Here is BBC's article with chart showing the trade volumes between Russia and Ukraine - it dips to the lowest in 2014-2015 before normalising https://www.bbc.com/russian/features-65113156
I would recommend checking against largest Russian companies - Gazprom, Lukoil etc

You've failed to address the point I made about the chronology with Petro Poroschenko.

And a drop off in trade is hardly unusual when your trade 'partner' has invaded you. That it recovered at all after 2014 is a miracle. Most probably because of the intertwined nature of the two economies, especially with military hardware and oil. And again unsurprisingly it stopped dead in February 22.

Your position seems to be that this was the reason for the invasion. I'm saying quite categorically that they were the result of two invasions.

 

[Larse]

In a March 2000 interview with the British television journalist David Frost, Putin was asked whether "it is possible Russia could join NATO." Putin, who at the time was serving as acting president and weeks later was elected to his first term, responded, "I don’t see why not."http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/st...eakfast_with_frost/transcripts/putin5.mar.txt
Another https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/russia-could-have-joined-nato-but-why-didn-t-they-do-it-55561
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-wanted-to-join-alliance-early-on-in-his-rule

Yes. That's the one I was referring to. Not exactly a filled out application for membership form is it?

And it was highly unlikely that Russia would join NATO after the spate of invasions and disputes with neighbouring territories that went on in the previous and subsequent years. Azerbaijan, Moldova, Georgia (twice) and Ukraine (twice).

What's your point here? That Russia was wronged by not being able to join NATO and had a hissy fit, so it's all NATO's fault? Forgetting all the invasions and disputes of course.

 

[Omega]

You've failed to address the point I made about the chronology with Petro Poroschenko.

And a drop off in trade is hardly unusual when your trade 'partner' has invaded you. That it recovered at all after 2014 is a miracle. Most probably because of the intertwined nature of the two economies, especially with military hardware and oil. And again unsurprisingly it stopped dead in February 22.

Your position seems to be that this was the reason for the invasion. I'm saying quite categorically that they were the result of two invasions.

I think I misunderstood you. To me, the reason is always financial. 2014 war was merely to stop Ukraine joining NATO quickly. However, Ukraine started pushing Russian companies out because they were replacing them with Western companies. Then Russian oligarchs decided to compensate the losses and this triggered 2022. One led to the other, all sides could deescalate, but did not

I updated with an example from Lukoil. I add it here again, check their Wikipedia site:

"In 2014, the company faced a sharp decline in retail sales in Ukraine by 42%, caused by Russian intervention in Ukraine. As a result, the management of Lukoil agreed to sell 100% of its subsidiary Lukoil Ukraine to the Austrian company AMIC Energy Management, which was announced at the end of July 2014.[27][28]
In 2015, it sold its service stations in Estonia and Ukraine, and in 2016, it sold its service stations in Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Cyprus.[30][31][32]"

 

[Omega]

Yes. That's the one I was referring to. Not exactly a filled out application for membership form is it?

And it was highly unlikely that Russia would join NATO after the spate of invasions and disputes with neighbouring territories that went on in the previous and subsequent years. Azerbaijan, Moldova, Georgia (twice) and Ukraine (twice).

What's your point here? That Russia was wronged by not being able to join NATO and had a hissy fit, so it's all NATO's fault? Forgetting all the invasions and disputes of course.

My point is that a powerful country can do whatever they please, no justice, just greed. And this applies to us too.
My other point is that politicians are fooling us presenting situation as if there are only two ways forward - give in to Putin or escalate further, - but there are other options too. They are playing not only with our lives, but the lives of our families, they distract us from the catastrophic consequences of the risk escalating the situation further