Worth investing in a pump, or more important things?

[ThreeSheets]

Hi folks,

I'm looking for some advice on equipment upgrades - mainly to make my life easier or improve the brew quality without paying out hardcore cash. Budget about £100-150 range.

I currently brew all-grain in a steel mash tun using BIAB, usually sparging the grain with a jug after (with water heated as required). I've got a cooling coil and simple plastic bucket fermenters with taps. All my transfer between vessels is done by gravity (lifting up onto shelves, plastic tubing transfer). After fermenting I bottle with caps... so got a capper, bottle tree for drying, no special cleaning systems just a bath which I clean thoroughly and use to mass sanitise the bottles.

I was thinking about getting a pump as I'm guessing it would come in useful for vessel to vessel transfer so I don't have to risk the destruction of my back (if my toddler hasn't done it already) lifting 30kg+ up and down from the counter and onto shelves at head height. And then later on an inline filter to use with it so that I don't have to put too much effort or additional steps for clear beer clarity like caragheen moss or whirlfloc tablets etc... wanting to brew beer & cider that I can more comfortably share with the more picky types that don't like too much sediment or cloud.

Are they also useful for cooling? Was thinking maybe I could send icy water in a big plastic tub through my cooling coil once standard tap water has taken most of the degrees out after wort boiling.

Maybe you have a better idea on more useful equipment? If you do it would be much appreciated. Or if I'm on the mark, what pumps are good? Was looking at the "Novax 20 B" which seems to have good flow rate and enough head to use a filter with.

Thanks in advance!

EDIT: I do have temperature control for fermentation - an iSpindel, and I do fairly basic cooling control with ice bottle contact to the wort inside a thermal bag.

ThreeSheets

 

[Rwilts]

Do you have any form of fermentation temp control?

I would suggest investment in fermentation will give you your best improvement for the money.

 

[Larse]

Not sure why you're lifting stuff to head height? I just go from counter to floor. Boiler to fermenter that is. If bottling, I don't even go that high. From a chair for example is good enough.

I second the motion for fermentation temperature control.

 

[ThreeSheets]

Do you have any form of fermentation temp control?

I would suggest investment in fermentation will give you your best improvement for the money.

Yes that's one thing I forgot to mention actually. I use the "Cool brewing bag" to put my fermenter in, and I have an iSpindel to track the internal temperature and density. So I have some very basic temperature control system in place where I use cold water bottle to bring the whole temperature into the right band.

 

[ThreeSheets]

Not sure why you're lifting stuff to head height? I just go from counter to floor. Boiler to fermenter that is. If bottling, I don't even go that high. From a chair for example is good enough.

I second the motion for fermentation temperature control.

That's just so it's fermenting on a shelf out of the way in the house so my wife doesn't get bothered by it, and then I've got the advantage of bottling it from there (I have a simple press to flow device to fill the bottles). I should also mention I've bought a dolly (wooden board with wheels) in order to transport once it's off the counter - quite a cheap addition and it really takes the load off of large batch transport.

Is there a better temperature control system than what I'm using in the same price range that would outweigh adding a pump to the available equipment?

 

[Rwilts]

Yes that's one thing I forgot to mention actually. I use the "Cool brewing bag" to put my fermenter in, and I have an iSpindel to track the internal temperature and density. So I have some very basic temperature control system in place where I use cold water bottle to bring the whole temperature into the right band.

Had to Google that one.. if it works for you then your sorted , but it looks like it allows cooling but not heating.. and it's reliant on freezer blocks.. so your temp must fluctuate a bit.. You need to decide where your going to get the best impact from your spend, if it's a pump then .

 

[Rwilts]

Had a little think... That is a insulated fermenter cover.. you could buy a heater and a temp controller to add heat option.

Prob cost you £50 ISH all in.

For info my set up is a fermizilla FV with a heater wrapped around the metal legs and the insulated cover over the top. The heater is plugged into a inkbird and I set the target fermentation temp. Obviously there is no cooling but since October that's not really been an issue...

 

[ThreeSheets]

Had to Google that one.. if it works for you then your sorted , but it looks like it allows cooling but not heating.. and it's reliant on freezer blocks.. so your temp must fluctuate a bit.. You need to decide where your going to get the best impact from your spend, if it's a pump then .

For heating I suppose I could use just a hot water bottle instead of freezer blocks no? I've not needed heating this far so I've no clue

Here's a christmas beer I'm doing at the minute - do these fluctuations in temp look okay to you the way I'm doing it? Maybe a steadier system makes a massive difference on taste? (The rise at the end Nov 24th onward is part of a recommendation)

 

[Rwilts]

Other may be better qualified to comment but looks like it's swinging between 18 and 20 repeatedly hitting target and holding would be preferable, but I bet your making good beer

 

[Agentgonzo]

Apart from that very initial spike, which I would assume is more of an error in reading than it actually did that huge temperature swing, I would say that your temperature control is definitely good enough and you don't need to spend anymore on it unless you want to.

I certainly have never experienced any problems at all from temperature swings of one or two degrees. And I've been brewing for well over a decade. But it's up to you to decide - don't let people scare you into something you don't want

Personally, I would spend the money on a pump as that sounds like the biggest problem facing you (and not on what others who don't have to lift your brewing kit say).

There is a lot to be said to pumping the wort up into an out-of-the-way place that means you don't have to lift it yourself and it's out of your wife's way:

 

[ThreeSheets]

Other may be better qualified to comment but looks like it's swinging between 18 and 20 repeatedly hitting target and holding would be preferable, but I bet your making good beer

The reason I put this basic cooling system together was basically because it was cheap (ispindel and a bag on sale didn't cost much) and I needed to get around high temps brewing in the summer. Are there a lot of beer types that hate swings? I'm aware the belgian ones do want a very constant temp but I'm not aiming for those until I can gradually get better kit.

The beers I do are mostly blonde and hoppy, or darker stouts - not a lot brown or dark ale drinkers around me but the Yorkshire in me does miss brewing them.

 

[ThreeSheets]

Apart from that very initial spike, which I would assume is more of an error in reading than it actually did that huge temperature swing, I would say that your temperature control is definitely good enough and you don't need to spend anymore on it unless you want to.

I certainly have never experienced any problems at all from temperature swings of one or two degrees. And I've been brewing for well over a decade. But it's up to you to decide - don't let people scare you into something you don't want

Personally, I would spend the money on a pump as that sounds like the biggest problem facing you (and not on what others who don't have to lift your brewing kit say).

There is a lot to be said to pumping the wort up into an out-of-the-way place that means you don't have to lift it yourself and it's out of your wife's way...

I have to say, when I saw that photo I had a hearty laugh, I assume we share the same problem, and I think it may be more than two of us facing this issue

Appreciate the advice - since you pump do you use any sort of filter? That fermenter looks great btw

 

[Agentgonzo]

I just use the pump that comes with my Grainfather G30. So there is a hop filter on the inside of the unit (and I have a false bottom too). I would say that you probably want a filter between your kettle and the pump... otherwise hop debris will probably clog the pump.

One thing to think of when buying a pump is the head pressure (how far 'up' it can pump liquid, which is entirely different from flow rate). I didn't think about this until it was too late. The pump that comes with the grainfather has a head pressure of (I think - from memory) 1.8m, which is almost exactly the distance from the grainfather to the fermenter. This resulted in a very slow transfer, and then the end of the transfer I would have to lift the grainfather up onto a hop-up to get the last out. Since then I've had to make hacky modifications that work for me. If the pump had enough head pressure to start with, this wouldn't have been an issue (I looked at a beefier pump, but that wouldn't fit in the enclosure in the grainfather - but that's not a problem you have). It does take about 40m to transfer for me (which isn't a problem as I just let it do its thing and it goes through the counterflow chiller at the same time)

Looking at the Novax 20 B, it has a "suction height" of 4m, which should be plenty.

For comparison, here are the specs for my G30:

• Model MP-10-RN, 220V or 240V, between 11L/min (@220V) to 12L/min (@240V, between 1.5 M head (@220V) to 2.1 M head (@240V).

I remember looking at it a while ago, so your novax 20M at 25L/m and 4m head seems plenty... if not a bit overkill.

 

[ThreeSheets]

I just use the pump that comes with my Grainfather G30. So there is a hop filter on the inside of the unit (and I have a false bottom too). I would say that you probably want a filter between your kettle and the pump... otherwise hop debris will probably clog the pump.

One thing to think of when buying a pump is the head pressure (how far 'up' it can pump liquid, which is entirely different from flow rate). I didn't think about this until it was too late. The pump that comes with the grainfather has a head pressure of (I think - from memory) 1.8m, which is almost exactly the distance from the grainfather to the fermenter. This resulted in a very slow transfer, and then the end of the transfer I would have to lift the grainfather up onto a hop-up to get the last out. Since then I've had to make hacky modifications that work for me. If the pump had enough head pressure to start with, this wouldn't have been an issue (I looked at a beefier pump, but that wouldn't fit in the enclosure in the grainfather - but that's not a problem you have). It does take about 40m to transfer for me (which isn't a problem as I just let it do its thing and it goes through the counterflow chiller at the same time)

Looking at the Novax 20 B, it has a "suction height" of 4m, which should be plenty.

For comparison, here are the specs for my G30:

• Model MP-10-RN, 220V or 240V, between 11L/min (@220V) to 12L/min (@240V, between 1.5 M head (@220V) to 2.1 M head (@240V).

I remember looking at it a while ago, so your novax 20M at 25L/m and 4m head seems plenty... if not a bit overkill.

Fortunately I'm a mech engineer by trade so I'm well familiar with hydraulic calculations - as you mention it I've been looking at 20 B and that supplies 25m of head at max flowrate. So that could be way too overkill like you say!!

I'll see what head loss clarifier filters have inline with a hop filter and see if I could get a cheaper motor. That MP-10RN looks a lot less expensive in comparison and if it does the trick - I'll take a look at what head I need and maybe I can cut down the cost and get a filter too for the price of the totla budget.

 

[Agentgonzo]

That MP-10RN looks a lot less expensive in comparison and if it does the trick - I'll take a look at what head I need and maybe I can cut down the cost and get a filter too for the price of the totla budget.

There are quite a few pumps in that MP-RN range. You should be able to find one that suits you. Mostly it depends on how high you want to pump it

 

[peebee]

I wouldn't look for one pump, your budget of £100-150 will easily stretch to two (you've not recirculating mucky mash, which maybe does require a large bore (12+mm).

One for cooling water (doesn't need to be sanitary, can be "impellor" type which will shift quick, £40-50 should get a good one), the second a "food-grade" for transfers. I use diaphragm pumps for transfer; slower than impeller types but very much gentler (despite the noise!). Do be careful with them as they can create a lot of pressure (and pop lines!) if the outlets block. They do need a mesh filter on the input as rubbish in the diaphragms will trash them. £30-45 will do. Diaphragm pumps will self-prime, most can't handle hotter than 60C.

 

[MashBag]

Do you have any form of fermentation temp control?

I would suggest investment in fermentation will give you your best improvement for the money.

Spot on.

Tbh and at risk of offending you, your post sounds like you are looking for an excuse to spend the money rather than buy something to fix a problem.

Please don't get me wrong, I like a shiney new toy as much as anyone else. But I have also been around long enough to have a mountain of "hmm could have thought that through better"

Buy a book? Will improve your beer more than a pump.

Save it towards an all in one machine?

Buy a £150 pump nah.

 

[ThreeSheets]

Spot on.

Tbh and at risk of offending you, your post sounds like you are looking for an excuse to spend the money rather than buy something to fix a problem.

Please don't get me wrong, I like a shiney new toy as much as anyone else. But I have also been around long enough to have a mountain of "hmm could have thought that through better"

Buy a book? Will improve your beer more than a pump.

Save it towards an all in one machine?

Buy a £150 pump nah.

None taken, I am indeed looking at an excuse to spend the money - it's a Christmas present from my wife so it's basically a "will get spent" kind of situation since I'm spending the same amount for her. It's either beer kit or clothes, so I'm going with beer kit.

As for books, I have "How to Brew" the excellent bible by John Palmer. I have another I forget the name of which is more from my student days doing condensed wort brews.

At the minute I'm leaning toward into how to get a clear beer filter and pump combo for under £150. I can't seem to find any temp control that fits in the budget if you have any suggestions... I do recall there was some sort of polystrene boxes you could stick your fermenter in which used a peltier module and fan to do the control, can't remember what that was called though. As for all-in-ones that won't fit in the budget and I'm more hoping to build my gear slowly toward those very versatile looking three vessel systems once we've got more space.

Unfortunately clear beer seems to require knowledge on micron size filters and particle sizes, don't know if anyone has a good resource for that? Just looking here and suppose if I want to bottle condition I need the yeast to get through but nothing above that I guess?

 

[ThreeSheets]

I wouldn't look for one pump, your budget of £100-150 will easily stretch to two (you've not recirculating mucky mash, which maybe does require a large bore (12+mm).

One for cooling water (doesn't need to be sanitary, can be "impellor" type which will shift quick, £40-50 should get a good one), the second a "food-grade" for transfers. I use diaphragm pumps for transfer; slower than impeller types but very much gentler (despite the noise!). Do be careful with them as they can create a lot of pressure (and pop lines!) if the outlets block. They do need a mesh filter on the input as rubbish in the diaphragms will trash them. £30-45 will do. Diaphragm pumps will self-prime, most can't handle hotter than 60C.

Yeah I'm not planning on passing the mash through the pump(s). I will consider two pumps since it avoids re-sanitising the same pump on a brew day, I just need to make sure that at least one would have enough head for filtering though.

When you say pop lines have you had tubes come off? I was thinking about securing any tubing with Jubilee clips if that's good enough?

 

[Rwilts]

None taken, I am indeed looking at an excuse to spend the money - it's a Christmas present from my wife so it's basically a "will get spent" kind of situation since I'm spending the same amount for her. It's either beer kit or clothes, so I'm going with beer kit.

As for books, I have "How to Brew" the excellent bible by John Palmer. I have another I forget the name of which is more from my student days doing condensed wort brews.

At the minute I'm leaning toward into how to get a clear beer filter and pump combo for under £150. I can't seem to find any temp control that fits in the budget if you have any suggestions... I do recall there was some sort of polystrene boxes you could stick your fermenter in which used a peltier module and fan to do the control, can't remember what that was called though. As for all-in-ones that won't fit in the budget and I'm more hoping to build my gear slowly toward those very versatile looking three vessel systems once we've got more space.

Unfortunately clear beer seems to require knowledge on micron size filters and particle sizes, don't know if anyone has a good resource for that? Just looking here and suppose if I want to bottle condition I need the yeast to get through but nothing above that I guess?

Get er brewed Ferminator as I recall ..