Wort Chiller v Water Bath: worth the cost?

[morethanworts]

[/quote]I know this is off topic, but how are you supposed to make up formula milk, except in the bottle? Although you have to let the water cool a bit, it is still meant to be hot to sanitise the powder.[/quote]

OT: re baby bottles...

Oh yes, I guess you do end up making it in the bottle eventually. I meant that you can let the water cool in a jug first.

It seemed to me there were far more nasties lying about on surfaces, chewed teddy bears, than in cans of milk powder, so we didn't worry about sterilising the powder it if it was being used immediately. We put the cold in first from the tap and just added a drop from the kettle for warmth (...in the bottle). When we were a bit more fussy, I think we used to store cooled, boiled water in sterilised bottles in the fridge, and just add a a splash from the kettle when we wanted to make it up. The kids were both fine when I last checked! What you don't do is make up the bottle with unsterilised milk powder in, store it, and then warm it up for use later. That's when the bugs would come...

Anyway, back to brewing...

 

[Good Ed]

Another reason for cooling quickly is to reduce the chance of getting off flavours from DMS. This is more common in pale lagers and with using Pilsner malt. DMS is continuously produced during the boil but is driven off by vapourisation. If the wort is cooled slowly then these compounds will still be produced but then will be re absorbed back into the wort. So cooling the wort down to 60C asap is important. A chiller is just another piece of kit that while not essential would lead to better brews.

 

[andybrew]

Numpty question

do I need to sterilise a chill cube or will the hot wort do this for me

 

[rpt]

Make sure the hot wort touches all surfaces for a few minutes and it should kill any bugs. However, a quick shake with Starsan wouldn't do any harm.

 

[morethanworts]

Another reason for cooling quickly is to reduce the chance of getting off flavours from DMS. This is more common in pale lagers and with using Pilsner malt. DMS is continuously produced during the boil but is driven off by vapourisation. If the wort is cooled slowly then these compounds will still be produced but then will be re absorbed back into the wort. So cooling the wort down to 60C asap is important. A chiller is just another piece of kit that while not essential would lead to better brews.

Thanks. That's useful. Would you say it is best to leave the hot wort uncovered for a while after the boil then, to let the last of the rising DMS escape? Or is that outweighed by the risk of infection from the air?

 

[Good Ed]

Thanks. That's useful. Would you say it is best to leave the hot wort uncovered for a while after the boil then, to let the last of the rising DMS escape? Or is that outweighed by the risk of infection from the air?

The DMS is only driven off during the boil, so cool straight away

 

[calumscott]

Thanks. That's useful. Would you say it is best to leave the hot wort uncovered for a while after the boil then, to let the last of the rising DMS escape? Or is that outweighed by the risk of infection from the air?

The DMS is only driven off during the boil, so cool straight away

Yup, you might want to wait just a couple of minutes to let things settle a bit, it'll be very turbulent for a while after you switch off the heat. Letting it calm should get you a better filtration effect.

Infection shouldn't be a problem, other than volcanic vent bacteria there isn't a hell of a lot that can live beyond 70oC...

 

[jonnymorris]

To quote Aleman from another thread...

Pale malt has very little in the way for SMM (The Precursor to DMS) and the same applies to British Lager Malts...

Consequently, it would seem that, when using pale malt, DMS is not as big an issue as John Palmer suggests. One would assume therefore that chilling quickly is also correspondingly less important.

 

[morethanworts]

To quote Aleman from another thread...

Pale malt has very little in the way for SMM (The Precursor to DMS) and the same applies to British Lager Malts...

Consequently, it would seem that, when using pale malt, DMS is not as big an issue as John Palmer suggests. One would assume therefore that chilling quickly is also correspondingly less important.

I interpreted Palmer slightly different to Aleman here http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

I read it that pale malts have more SMM, because they are not roasted, but that [Palmer is saying] the resultant DMS is accepted as part of the style. "...which explains why it is more prevalent in pale lagers. In other styles, DMS is a common off-flavor, and can be caused by poor brewing practices or bacterial infections.", Palmer says.

So maybe I don't need to worry about the quick chill from a DMS perspective with lager, but only because it is part of the style?

 

[Good Ed]

Not quite, what Palmer says is the precursor (SMM) of DMS occurs more in pale malts rather than roasted malts, and therefore you are more likely to get DMS in a lager by not chilling, however this is not part of the style of a lager and is undesirable. In fairness it is not just Palmer, you will hear Jamil Zainasheff also talking about the importance of this for pale styles. I would certainly not try and make a Pilsner without the ability to chill quickly. If you get DMS in other syles it may not affect the flavour noticably. It's whatever you are happy with to produce a good beer, if you are happy with the results of no chill then that's fine.

 

[Aleman]

If you read more widely than Palmer (Especially the online version of How to brew - Vile book) and look at some of the European works, then you will discover that while pale malts have more SMM prior to malting one of the tasks of the maltster is to reduce this during the malting phase so that the brewer has a malt that they can use without issues. . . . British maltsters appear to have learned this aspect quite well, and all British pale malts, and indeed the British Lager malts, have levels of SMM low enough that no significant DMS is produced following a 60 minute boil.

That's a rough summary from Malting and Brewing science Volume I, which I should point out is 30 years old so things may have moved on from there

 

[morethanworts]

Not quite, what Palmer says is the precursor (SMM) of DMS occurs more in pale malts rather than roasted malts, and therefore you are more likely to get DMS in a lager by not chilling, however this is not part of the style of a lager and is undesirable. In fairness it is not just Palmer, you will hear Jamil Zainasheff also talking about the importance of this for pale styles. I would certainly not try and make a Pilsner without the ability to chill quickly. If you get DMS in other syles it may not affect the flavour noticably. It's whatever you are happy with to produce a good beer, if you are happy with the results of no chill then that's fine.

I suspect you are right and I will chill the wort as quickly as possible anyway with whatever means I have, if only to reduce the risk of infection. I certainly don't see any advice that you should let it linger while the DMS produces desirable notes in the taste!

I haven't found the specific bit from Jamil Zainasheff yet. However, I have re-read the Palmer link in my previous post twice (on DMS) and he does seem to suggest we may be used to DMS in lagers: "DMS is common in many light lagers and is considered to be part of the character."

This forum really is so useful and I wish the internet had been as big in 1995 when I did my first few brews, before a big gap until now! Many thanks for your contributions.

With a limited budget and all that I have read here and elsewhere since my question, I think I will spend a little more on a bigger stock pot for now, see how my first brew (for years) goes just chilling that in a water bath. I don't have the capacity to boil enough to fill a 23l cube, so I'd be storing a lot less wort if I went the no-chill route. Perhaps that wouldn't matter, but the method somehow doesn't feel right to me!

 

[rpt]

You can buy smaller cubes so you can do no-chill with mini brews too. There's a seller on eBay with 5L, 10L, 20L and 25L cubes.

 

[Pearlfisher]

Which way should the water circulate in the wort chiller to be the most efficient? , from bottom to top or top to bottom? :wha:

 

[BarnsleyBrewer]

My mate leaves it in the boiler overnight then drains it the next day when cold, he says he never has any problems..

BB

 

[graysalchemy]

Which way should the water circulate in the wort chiller to be the most efficient? , from bottom to top or top to bottom? :wha:

I always go top to bottom as the chiller will be coldest at the hottest part of the wort ie the top.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

:thumb:

 

[Pearlfisher]

Thanks GA , that makes sense , first time I used it I tried it that way and it seemed to cool a lot quicker than when I just tried it bottom to top although it was much colder weather beforehand.