Will reducing ABV affect flavour?

[Nottsbeer]

Hi, having spent the best part of last week in the Netherlands drinking some lovely bock bier, I'm now planning to brew a batch at home. This will be my first venture into brewing a larger. The bock I was drinking was around 6.5%. Bock recipes I've found are generally around this mark or higher. I'd like to brew something slightly lower in alcohol, say around 4.5-5%. Would changing the grain bill to reduce the ABV have a great effect on the flavor? Also, do you think I should change the hop volume? Any feedback greatly appreciated.

 

[phildo79]

You need to balance the beer. So if you are reducing the abv, you need to reduce the hops accordingly. But it isn't just as simple as that. You won't be making the exact same beer with just a lower abv. It will taste quite a bit different, now matter how good the recipe is. Abv plàys a part to the overall flavour. There is a reason bock beers are over 6%. Same goes for IPAs. When was the last time you had a session IPA and thought it was just as good as some of the best 6% IPAs you've had?

 

[Nottsbeer]

You need to balance the beer. So if you are reducing the abv, you need to reduce the hops accordingly. But it isn't just as simple as that. You won't be making the exact same beer with just a lower abv. It will taste quite a bit different, now matter how good the recipe is. Abv plàys a part to the overall flavour. There is a reason bock beers are over 6%. Same goes for IPAs. When was the last time you had a session IPA and thought it was just as good as some of the best 6% IPAs you've had?

Thanks for your reply. I'll have a think about this before my next brew.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

It's worth having a play with one of the recipe design tools like BeerSmith, Brewer's Friend etc as they will scale recipes for you.
You're right that if you're reducing the grain weight then the hops need to be scaled back too, otherwise the reduced 'maltiness' will be out of balance with the hops. Personally I find the hops have to be a reduced a bit further than a simple scaling tends to suggest - but maybe that's just my personal taste.
One thing you might be able to do before reducing the malts, is to scale back any sugar added as that may have less of a flavour impact. If it's dark sugar though it might be an idea to go for a slightly darker crystal malt in order to compensate?
I know it sounds like a tricky business but I'm sure you'll end up with excellent beer either way :-) Of course there are those who would say a better option would be just to fill your glass 80% full instead and sip slowly...

 

[Nottsbeer]

It's worth having a play with one of the recipe design tools like BeerSmith, Brewer's Friend etc as they will scale recipes for you.
You're right that if you're reducing the grain weight then the hops need to be scaled back too, otherwise the reduced 'maltiness' will be out of balance with the hops. Personally I find the hops have to be a reduced a bit further than a simple scaling tends to suggest - but maybe that's just my personal taste.
One thing you might be able to do before reducing the malts, is to scale back any sugar added as that may have less of a flavour impact. If it's dark sugar though it might be an idea to go for a slightly darker crystal malt in order to compensate?
I know it sounds like a tricky business but I'm sure you'll end up with excellent beer either way :-) Of course there are those who would say a better option would be just to fill your glass 80% full instead and sip slowly...

Lol...good thinking!
Your advice and that from phildo is good. The link to the strength and taste profile is very important I think in this beer style, so I may not get quite what I want by simply reducing the grain bill (and hops). I will probably make a brew as best I can to the normal style and then play around to see if I can reduce the strength and keep the flavour. Funnily enough, I never find these beers tasting strong when I drink them. A strong ale however I find very noticeable. Maybe this is down to the style...or the fact they come in 300ml bottles rather than 500ml/pint. Need to start collecting some suitable bottles. I'd love to brew two similar beers at the same time in small quantities (say 7-10l) but sadly don't have a big enough brew fridge. Need to convince my wife we need a bigger shed without mentioning beer

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Why not brew at 6.5% but drink less?

 

[phildo79]

If the reason for going lower is to be able to drink more, I'd opt for the original abv and just have a little less. You really are going to end up with a different beer. And not one like the ones you had in Holland.

 

[Nottsbeer]

It's not a case of wanting to drink more, rather just making a lower % beer with the same/similar taste. Cheers for your input.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

I’m sure it will turn out great :-)

 

[The Baron]

Hi Nottsbeer do not be put off you can brew excellent beers with low ABV's they just need to be balanced. Trial and error will come in here and yes you can produce good IPA;'s with lower ABV.
I do nearly all my styles at less than 4% and have had some really good brews.
Some styles do need the high alcohol but plenty can be produced lower so go for it just remember balance them - BU/GU does help with that and there is a chart you can use just google it

 

[phildo79]

It's not a case of wanting to drink more, rather just making a lower % beer with the same/similar taste. Cheers for your input.

You will do well to nail it first time. I would question if it is even possible. I have yet to drink a "session" IPA that I thought was actually any good. And believe me, I've tried quite a few. If the pro breweries struggle, just think how tricky it'll be for a homebrewer. I'm not trying to dissuade you from trying, just trying to make you aware of the difficulties.

 

[foxy]

Hi, having spent the best part of last week in the Netherlands drinking some lovely bock bier, I'm now planning to brew a batch at home. This will be my first venture into brewing a larger. The bock I was drinking was around 6.5%. Bock recipes I've found are generally around this mark or higher. I'd like to brew something slightly lower in alcohol, say around 4.5-5%. Would changing the grain bill to reduce the ABV have a great effect on the flavor? Also, do you think I should change the hop volume? Any feedback greatly appreciated.

I don't think I am alone in knowing the strength of the beer I am drinking. Drink an AIPA at 5% then at 7% it is 'perceiving' the difference in alcohol volume that is noticed not so much the taste. The tongue can only taste so much, it is the olfaction which is the main taster.
So AIPA's are very similar in smell, but one perceives the higher volume of alcohol, which for me gives the greater pleasure of the 7% over the 5%.
So I agree with those who say make the same strength beer. And avoid looking for a holy grail.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Returning to the question...

Would changing the grain bill to reduce the ABV have a great effect on the flavor?

Yes it will change the flavour a bit, but to be honest what you brew yourself will taste different to the commercial examples anyhow - especially as you said this is your first go at a lager :-)

do you think I should change the hop volume?

Yes I think you should. It will probably take a bit of fine-tuning, but if I were you I'd start by scaling the hops down by 10%.

I'm sure it will taste great.

 

[Cwrw666]

Last year I brewed several Pilsners, all to the same recipe. They were coming out at about 5.5%. One however, I totally c**ked up my volumes and ended up with 4.5 gallons instead of the 4 I was aiming for and I'd already reduced the pilsner malt a bit for a slightly weaker brew. Came out at 3.9% ABV. It was very nice. Still tasted like Pilsner and still with loads of body.

 

[Nottsbeer]

Cheers all. This will end up as a long-term "project" with tinkering as I go along. I'm very happy with the Ales I've brewed, even the ones that suffered from simple errors on my part, and I'll be equally happy with any bock brews that are drinkable! I recently made a Trappist style beer which I'm enjoying. It needs a bit of tweaking which I'll look at in the future, but that's part of the fun of this hobby. I'm going to start by brewing from an established recipe and then start tweaking it. As I don't drink much and only brew around every 6 weeks, I'll report back in a few years on progress .

 

[Dorst]

Dutch style bockbier is quite a diverse style with little rules to define the style. There is one rule though; the wort needs to be at least Plato 15.5 (SG 1.063).

Some styles translate better into session beers than others. I fear bock/bokbier is not one of those. You want a full body with some burnt caramel and residual sweetness. Many of the nicer bokbieren are even higher in alcohol because it accenuates what makes the style great (dubbelbock or eisbock).

I'm Dutch and I never seen an attempt at a session bokbier before. Although 2 years ago Grolsch did launch a non-alcoholic version:

They had to swap out certain ingredients which failed to qualify it as bockbier. So they named it herfstbier (Autumn beer). I never had it and to be honest I'm not very keen to try it.

In short: I agree with the people that posted above. Brew a bockbier of 6 percent or higher and consume a bit less.

 

[Awfers]

As already mentioned, simply scaling a recipe down to have a lower ABV may not / likely will not result in the beers tasting the same (or even similar), even if you do adjust the hops.

Not knowing your recipe, were I in your shoes, I would maybe experiment with replacing some of the malt bill with "maltier tasting" malts such as Melanoidin, or Munich/Vienna.

Or trying your hand at decoction.

You may also want to play around with different yeasts to get a maltier profile.

 

[Dorst]

What recipe are you using?

For those interested in brewing a bockbier here is my stab at it ;-)

Original Gravity: 1.067
Final Gravity (Adv): 1.017
IBU (Tinseth): 25
BU/GU: 0.37
Colour: 40.5 EBC

Malts (6.225 kg)
3.1 kg (49.8%) — Weyermann Munich I — Grain — 14 EBC
2.5 kg (40.2%) — Weyermann Pilsner — Grain — 3.3 EBC
500 g (8%) — Weyermann Caramunich II — Grain — 124 EBC
125 g (2%) — Thomas Fawcett Chocolate Malt — Grain — 1000 EBC

Hops (55 g)
15 g (19 IBU) — Magnum 12% — Boil — 60 min
40 g (6 IBU) — Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 4% — Boil — 10 min

Yeast
2 pkg — Fermentis S-189 SafLager German Lager 84%

You could replace the yeast with something Belgian abbey as well or a general German ale yeast like Fermentis K97.

 

[Nottsbeer]

What recipe are you using?

For those interested in brewing a bockbier here is my stab at it ;-)

Original Gravity: 1.067
Final Gravity (Adv): 1.017
IBU (Tinseth): 25
BU/GU: 0.37
Colour: 40.5 EBC

Malts (6.225 kg)
3.1 kg (49.8%) — Weyermann Munich I — Grain — 14 EBC
2.5 kg (40.2%) — Weyermann Pilsner — Grain — 3.3 EBC
500 g (8%) — Weyermann Caramunich II — Grain — 124 EBC
125 g (2%) — Thomas Fawcett Chocolate Malt — Grain — 1000 EBC

Hops (55 g)
15 g (19 IBU) — Magnum 12% — Boil — 60 min
40 g (6 IBU) — Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 4% — Boil — 10 min

Yeast
2 pkg — Fermentis S-189 SafLager German Lager 84%

You could replace the yeast with something Belgian abbey as well or a general German ale yeast like Fermentis K97.

Thanks for posting your recipe. I have only got as far as looking at the bock style recipies in GH and a couple I found online. As I will have to buy all ingredients online (local HBS won't have what I need), I should also plan a few other beers ahead and get organized! Once I brew this beer I'll post the final recipe used. I am also wondering about finding an AG kit for this as it may be cheaper than buying lots of ingredients that may go off before I use them all, though the Malt Miller option of small grain bags may also be the way to go.

You and other posters are correct in highlighting the correlation between the taste etc and ABV. Maybe I should change plan and find another style of beer that has some characteristics of a bock and lower abv. Something to ponder over the winter.