Where to stick me probe (a HERMS question).

[Springer]

Re probe position, as near to the HE exit as possible as per springer is the 'norm'. When testing for the 1st time make sure the wort exiting into the tun is the same temp as that measured by your HE probe, as your HE probe could be reading 65 deg c but your exiting wort could be reading 63 due to heat loss from the pipes etc.

I've been thinking :) dangerous at this stage of the game. :lol:
You know V, the above gives it away. If your H.E. is any good whatever temp goes in ? it should spank it up to the desired/ target temperature, i.e. you get seduced by the display temp and think you have hit utopia.
My thinking has not got as far as tthe probe on the tun out, but you need to know what temp that is to be sure and smug. ............... but :?
S
Edit ..........I've been thinking again, no sampling has taken place, everyone must have limits. :lol:
With the probe in the tun out, it could allow the PID to heat up to more than the desired temperature, could it not.
What ever the system, including tun, it must be well insulated and with a lid. I didn't use mine, liked to "watch" the HERMs was fighting to replace heat loss.
Tun at 65 say, lossing heat with wort going in at 66, it will never get to 66. :)
For bigger temperaure differences, it will take, :hmm: "ages" this is way I have given up HERMs especially for my big brews, not sure yet for pilot brews, but have serious doubts. :)

 

[Fil]

my limited herms tests were with a coil of 10mm microbore circa 2.5m in length. with my probe 2ft away from the coil along an insulated tube at the tun return point, i had a glass thermometer reading the circa 8pint waterbath heated with a tesco element.. the waterbath temp held a stable point at the target temp, i did kink the coil in its final fitting so may have throttled the flow by chance to the sweet spot??

the temp probe fitting

the kinky coil...

i appeared to get very good efficiency in heat transfer

 

[Vossy1]

You know V, the above gives it away. If your H.E. is any good whatever temp goes in ? it should spank it up to the desired/ target temperature, i.e. you get seduced by the display temp and think you have hit utopia.

It doesn't matter how efficient your HE is S, if you lose temp between HE and tun you need to adjust your HE temp to suit. That's a dangerous situation if you lose so much heat post HE that you're boiling wort to get it to exit a 65 deg c in the tun.

My thinking has not got as far as tthe probe on the tun out, but you need to know what temp that is to be sure and smug.

It would be safe to assume that a probe on the tun in and one on the tun out would mean the tun is at the same temp....or would it :P

With the probe in the tun out, it could allow the PID to heat up to more than the desired temperature, could it not.

Yup, that's why it's near HE out to avoid that situation.

What ever the system, including tun, it must be well insulated and with a lid. I didn't use mine, liked to "watch" the HERMs was fighting to replace heat loss.
Tun at 65 say, lossing heat with wort going in at 66, it will never get to 66.

That's why you can set the 'off set' by 1 deg, then you get matching temps :thumb: I used to use my tun in winter at minus temps and could get equal temps by adjusting the off set.
The closer the temp difference the longer a HERMS will take to equal the temp out as it under and over shoots to get to that temp.

 

[Springer]

It doesn't matter how efficient your HE is S, if you lose temp between HE and tun you need to adjust your HE temp to suit. That's a dangerous situation if you lose so much heat post HE that you're boiling wort to get it to exit a 65 deg c in the tun.

Yep see that, I have been known to set the PID temp a couple of degrees high to speed up the heating, don't think a few seconds at a higher temp make mush difference to the brew.
What I am getting at is that if tun out is 50 say and the H.E. spanks it up to 66 you get very happy, but you are under an illusion, the tun is no where near to the desired temp and will take ages with a big brew to get there. :)

It would be safe to assume that a probe on the tun in and one on the tun out would mean the tun is at the same temp....or would it :P

Yes think it would be and this is where you need to be, you need to monitor that tun out temp to be sure that you are getting what you think you have. :lol:

I will add again, it was a mistake I made a HERMs system is not a solution for slopping brewing technique, i.e. not worrying about, hitting your desired mash temperature, "HERMs wiil fix it" :nono: It will, but it will take a long time with a big brew and a big temperature to make up.
Better to use some brewing software and get it right first time put the lid on, HERMs or not, go a relax or do something else for 90 mins, traditional brewing method only No worry of leaks and stuck mashes, pumps running dry etc.
Thinking about it, if you have a good mash tun, I don't know what a HERMs system is for :? :lol:

S

 

[Fil]

I don't know what a HERMs system is for :? :lol:

S

well all this talk of herms got me to plumb up my experimental coil and cook a posh couple of steaks for tonights supper.

Yes i know its daft a cylinder on its side, it is well chocked up and wont roll, the fill hole on top was supposed to be the element hole but it broke thru mouldings in the plastic making a seal impossible, so change of plan last second .... as these things go ....

 

[evanvine]

S, you raise some very good points!
My mash is about 14 ltrs including the space under the false bottom, so my herms can rectify errors.
I monitor the HE out about 4" from the MT so have no worries about heat loss.
I think the big thing is I built it for the hell of it and just like to see it working.

 

[Vossy1]

Yep see that, I have been known to set the PID temp a couple of degrees high to speed up the heating, don't think a few seconds at a higher temp make mush difference to the brew.

So have I. A PID learns by under and over shooting target temp, the problem is when the temps are so close together it doesn't act nearly enough, a problem with all heat exchange, not just HERMS.

What I am getting at is that if tun out is 50 say and the H.E. spanks it up to 66 you get very happy, but you are under an illusion, the tun is no where near to the desired temp and will take ages with a big brew to get there.

Really :hmm: ...so when we give the advice to cool box mashers...just add a pint or too of boiling liquor we're talking rubbish :lol: FWIW I never found the odd pint made much of a difference when properly stirred, in fact I lost a mash trying to do it (too much liquor). It's all about adequate flow rates with a HERMS S, they will correct a mash quite quickly but the only way to check is to have a probe in the tun at the same time. FWIW, not sure where it is, but eskimobob came to datalog a mash of mine using my HERMS, I think he was a bit sceptical :lol: and the results were great...will try and find the link :hmm:

Thinking about it, if you have a good mash tun, I don't know what a HERMs system is for

S, 2 of your posts have now questioned the use of HERMS, in the HERMS section. I'm not being funny but a lot of the questions have been answered and it seems like you have a bee in your bonnet ...do it for fun....don't do it... hover over a mash wondering at the pumped system or walk away and do something else, it's personal choice there is no right or wrong...I'll try and find that link :hmm:

 

[Springer]

What I am getting at is that if tun out is 50 say and the H.E. spanks it up to 66 you get very happy, but you are under an illusion, the tun is no where near to the desired temp and will take ages with a big brew to get there.

Really :hmm: ...so when we give the advice to cool box mashers...just add a pint or too of boiling liquor we're talking rubbish :lol: FWIW I never found the odd pint made much of a difference when properly stirred, in fact I lost a mash trying to do it (too much liquor). It's all about adequate flow rates with a HERMS S, they will correct a mash quite quickly but the only way to check is to have a probe in the tun at the same time. FWIW, not sure where it is, but eskimobob came to datalog a mash of mine using my HERMS, I think he was a bit sceptical :lol: and the results were great...will try and find the link :hmm:

Yes V, really, I don't see your thinking . Adding very hot water works quickly, brewing software will tell you how much you need to add for temps and mash volume. As I've said before adding 2 litres a minute at 66 degrees will take ages on a big brew.
Love to see the data and link though

Thinking about it, if you have a good mash tun, I don't know what a HERMs system is for

S, 2 of your posts have now questioned the use of HERMS, in the HERMS section. I'm not being funny but a lot of the questions have been answered and it seems like you have a bee in your bonnet ...do it for fun....don't do it... hover over a mash wondering at the pumped system or walk away and do something else, it's personal choice there is no right or wrong...I'll try and find that link :hmm:

Again sorry V, thought this thread was about where to put a probe in a HERMs system and I thats what we were discussing here. My questions or more like my doubts and logic thought have not been answered. Maybe I do have a bee in my bonnet as you say, but only to get to the facts.

I accept it is personally choice, but I think people get confused about as to needing a HERMs system, I did, cos they think they "need" one, to have a proper brewery. I enjoyed building mine, some people like the lights and things that fine.

I will not mention HERMs again.

S

 

[Springer]

Re probe position, as near to the HE exit as possible as per springer is the 'norm'. When testing for the 1st time make sure the wort exiting into the tun is the same temp as that measured by your HE probe, as your HE probe could be reading 65 deg c but your exiting wort could be reading 63 due to heat loss from the pipes etc.

Over the years I have to question the position of the HE probe. I know placing it closest to the HE exit ensures rapid reaction to temperature changes, but TBH I see no reason why it couldn't go on the exit into the mash tun (not in the mash), in fact I think it would be better as it would take out the variable of heat loss to surroundings/system between HE and mash exit :hmm:
.

As a HERMs expert V, you seem to have change your mind since this post of a week ago.

S

 

[Vossy1]

What I am getting at is that if tun out is 50 say and the H.E. spanks it up to 66 you get very happy, but you are under an illusion, the tun is no where near to the desired temp and will take ages with a big brew to get there.

That all depends on flow rates and heat exchange,
great HE + slow flow rate= crap mash temp rise,
great flow rate + great HE = great mast temp rise.

As a HERMs expert V

I've never professed to be such a thing unless you can show me otherwise. I just happen to be a person who's used a HERMS more than most and tries to pass on my experiences, a lot of folk don't bother.

Thinking about it, if you have a good mash tun, I don't know what a HERMs system is for

and again, you're just trying to get a rise now :lol:

you seem to have change your mind since this post of a week ago

I've read the post twice and must be missing something (most likely )

I accept it is personally choice, but I think people get confused about as to needing a HERMs system, I did, cos they think they "need" one, to have a proper brewery. I enjoyed building mine, some people like the lights and things that fine.

That's exactly why we created a HERMS/RIMS section when this forum was formed. You don't need a HERMS/RIMS to make great beer but this is the HERMS/RIMS section for HERMS/RIMS brewing. Can you imagine a post in the kits section, why do we need kits when we have AG, a post in the BIAB section saying similar, do we really need to put a disclaimer on the forum title saying it

I will not mention HERMs again

get away, debate is welcome

 

[Vossy1]

I can't remember if you asked on this topic S regards the data logged brew I did with eskimo bob but...it took me ages to find it and it is on Jims from 2006 :shock: here I've asked M to copy the info for me from his post :thumb:
This proves beyond doubt the ability of my HERMS to keep a mash at a stable temp, look at the readings from a probe in the mash M got and how the pids keeping the temp on track

 

[Springer]

I can't remember if you asked on this topic S regards the data logged brew I did with eskimo bob but...it took me ages to find it and it is on Jims from 2006 :shock: here I've asked M to copy the info for me from his post :thumb:
This proves beyond doubt the ability of my HERMS to keep a mash at a stable temp, look at the readings from a probe in the mash M got and how the pids keeping the temp on track

Had a quick look at the info V, stable yes, won't a good a good mash tun will do that. Maybe loss a little bit, does it matter ?
I have always appreciated the ability to keep a mash warm, especially when heat loss it mostly off the surface and thats where the spot on temperature wort is going in.

My "bee" :lol: is that HERMs will take ages to get a big brew to a new or target temperature . :hmm:

S

 

[Vossy1]

Sorry I didn't realise we'd questioned a good mash tuns ability to hold heat, we both know the answer to that one :grin: Maybe someone's data logged a stepped mash using RIMS or HERMS, I haven't, but I bet it's been done :hmm: will have a nosey round if I have time :thumb:

 

[Springer]

There was a post recently about someone data logging a fridge I believe, using a pi, so all the work should be to hand, now there's a good toy, if I ever get some time.

S

 

[evanvine]

My "bee" :lol: is that HERMs will take ages to get a big brew to a new or target temperature

I take your point S.
Do you not think that for larger brews you will need a similar depth to surface area ratio.
EG a false bottom half as big again with a similar, or shallower, depth so that the recirc rate may be increased.
just a thought!

 

[Springer]

My "bee" :lol: is that HERMs will take ages to get a big brew to a new or target temperature

I take your point S.
Do you not think that for larger brews you will need a similar depth to surface area ratio.
EG a false bottom half as big again with a similar, or shallower, depth so that the recirc rate may be increased.
just a thought!

I said up post that I would never mention HERMs again, but I suppose this is the same time, .............not again. :lol:

Yes E, but not sure about your ratios etc, :? but you cetainly need to get recirc rate up to get anything near a reasonable time for a correction to take place. The problem is you set say 66 to avoid going over and it take ages to get tun to 66, thats why a slosh of very hot water does the job quickly.
I seem to remember a quote of 2 litres per min being a target. :hmm:
When I use say 16kg of grain, I have 40 litres of water, plus 8 litres below the floor, so 50 litres to raise in temp, i.e. to go though the HE. at 2 litres per min that 25 minutes.
This is not allowing for heat loss and heating up the 16 kg of grain and the mass tun that was at the wrong temp. Say no heat losses, i.e. put the lid on, :lol: you could work out the heat that the other require.
It certainly is a long time at 2 litres a min, so how fast could we pump, to make this thing work, without problems in the tun. :?

How long have we got before the conversion is done, at the wrong temperature, if we wait for HERMs to do its thing :hmm:

S

P.S. sorry V, it was Es fault, he got me going again. :lol:

 

[Springer]

I don't know what a HERMs system is for :? :lol:

S

well all this talk of herms got me to plumb up my experimental coil and cook a posh couple of steaks for tonights supper.

.

Missed the post Fil, spot on :thumb: :lol:

S

 

[evanvine]

thats why a slosh of very hot water does the job quickly.

Indeed it does S, but not a lot of good for a stepped mash!

 

[Springer]

thats why a slosh of very hot water does the job quickly.

Indeed it does S, but not a lot of good for a stepped mash!

Have many stepped mashes are being done out there E. ?

Can you not add "hotter" water then :? Were stepped mashes not done before HERMs was invented. :)
With Beersmith, (and presumabley other software) you can enter "present" temp, temp required and at what temp additional water will be and out comes the quantity required.

No, if anything I think the only option is to up the pumping rate as you suggested, but checking back posts, from reliable contributors , 2.5 litres is the recommended flow, I was a bit out. :) Bit its still going to take ages to get a bit temperature change on a big brew.

To me, HERMs is like one of those fancy lorries with loads of lights on the cab roof and chrome everywhere, looks good, but expensive, not necessary and does not perform any better than a normal standard one. :lol: (Now look what you have done to me E, I told Vos I would say any more. :lol:

S

Thats it, I'm out of this one, as promised, Iv'e said my piece, more than once, it up to people to think about it and then do as they think fit.

 

[Fil]

I don't know what a HERMs system is for :? :lol:

S

well all this talk of herms got me to plumb up my experimental coil and cook a posh couple of steaks for tonights supper.

.

Missed the post Fil, spot on :thumb: :lol:

S

Well it was a worthwhile experiment, oh my god, and i dont use them words lightly... it was a couple of stretched thin frying steaks out of the freezer, so nothing special to start with.. the sort that curls up into a tube when you show it the frying pan.. and after 2 and a half hours at 55c WOW... im not kidding, Lizzie didnt want any cos we dont have the griddle thing to rib em and the flash fry in a frying pan doesn't have the same visual effect , however she nabbed it back quick after seeing how i was tucking into mine

YUM... am deffo getting some nice thick ribeye steaks and askin the butcher to vac pac em for us next shop.

without a gridle pan they lack visual appeal, initially but once tasted you forget what it looks like and get stuck in..

I know what my herms coil is for now
burp!!!!