When to step up a starter?

[MrN]

Hello,

I'm about to do my first brew using a starter and I'm wondering - at what point is a starter too large, i.e. when should I start stepping up? I'm going to be using the wyeast 1469 activator smack pack and, depending on age (haven't ordered it yet), I may have to do a 3 litre starter. Would it be fine to go straight into a 3 litre starter or should I consider stepping up?

Cheers.

 

[geetee]

What size batch are you making, the Wyeast pack should be good for a 25 litre batch as it is.

Are you planning on splitting it for multiple uses?

 

[MrN]

What size batch are you making, the Wyeast pack should be good for a 25 litre batch as it is.

Are you planning on splitting it for multiple uses?

It's a 25 litre batch, target OG around 1.046. I used a few different online starter calculators to work this out. I was expecting maybe a 2 litre starter but depending on age it might need to be larger...

I don't have a stir plate but have tried allowing for intermittent shaking however as I'm at work during the days, I don't know if I can rely on this.

 

[geetee]

It's a 25 litre batch, target OG around 1.046. I used a few different online starter calculators to work this out. I was expecting maybe a 2 litre starter but depending on age it might need to be larger...

I don't have a stir plate but have tried allowing for intermittent shaking however as I'm at work during the days, I don't know if I can rely on this.

I have used the Wyeast smackpack before for a 25 litre batch.
Simply follow the instructions on the pack
- smack it to release nutrients,
-allow it to swell and pitch it,there's more than enough cells in there for this size batch

no need for a starter (unless you want to split it first, of course)

 

[MrN]

I have used the Wyeast smackpack before for a 25 litre batch.
Simply follow the instructions on the pack
- smack it to release nutrients,
-allow it to swell and pitch it,there's more than enough cells in there for this size batch

no need for a starter (unless you want to split it first, of course)

That's interesting, kind of goes against everything I'd read so far. Perhaps the starter is more a case of optimising your results?

Regardless, I'd still be interested in an answer to my original question - at what point is a starter too large and therefore you should step it up instead?

 

[Covrich]

No expert on it but if you're willing to plunge it into a 25L then logic for me would be 3l is okay.. (I would consider this then splitting so you have an unused primary strain)

Personally I am pro starters, for optimal results lower lag time and for a healthier more harvestable yeast and even though very minor and subtle to be detectable your chances of off flavours reduce dramatically. That said with 1.046 the chances are you will be okay... If in doubt I would get even just a 1 Lt starter going for that to get it growing and awake and then put that in, you'll be fine..

That is my take on it anyway.

 

[Simonh82]

Check out this blog and in particular this post http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2015/02/yeast-starters-stirred-vs-not.html. This suggests still or shaken starters don't necessarily produce less yeast than stirred, they just take longer and definitely require a good shake to begin with.

 

[MyQul]

Wyeast 1469 is currently my house yeast. At 1.046 I'd just stick it in a 2L starter (that's what I did straight from the smak pack). If it was so old I needed a 3L starter I'd do a 1L starter then step it up to a 2L starter.

As an aside I wouldn't ferment it warmer than 18C as it can have overpowering appley esters. The first time I used it I fermented at 20C to get to esters going to see what they tasted like. The porter I put it in need a bit of extended conditioning to mellow the appleyness out.

 

[sponge_]

I always make a starter so that I know I'm pitching healthy, active yeast. 2-3L per batch (decanting before pitching). It takes away the variables such as how the yeast has been stored/handled and viability of the pack.

I know that wyeast/white labs say they're good to be thrown straight in to a standard batch, but I'd rather make sure I've given the yeast the best shot at a healthy/ideal ferment. After all, we make wort - yeast makes beer. Happy yeast = good beer (more often than not).

Ditto above about keeping 1469 at 17/18'C.

 

[Covrich]

I always make a starter so that I know I'm pitching healthy, active yeast. 2-3L per batch (decanting before pitching). It takes away the variables such as how the yeast has been stored/handled and viability of the pack.

I know that wyeast/white labs say they're good to be thrown straight in to a standard batch, but I'd rather make sure I've given the yeast the best shot at a healthy/ideal ferment. After all, we make wort - yeast makes beer. Happy yeast = good beer (more often than not).

Ditto above about keeping 1469 at 17/18'C.

Yup totally with this, the yeast isn't cheap so you want to make sure its in tip top shape and this carries over to harvesting too..

What did John Palmer say? a good recipe and a bad fermentation can make a bad beer but with a good fermentation and a bad recipe you can still get something drinkable.

 

[MrN]

Wyeast 1469 is currently my house yeast. At 1.046 I'd just stick it in a 2L starter (that's what I did straight from the smak pack). If it was so old I needed a 3L starter I'd do a 1L starter then step it up to a 2L starter.

As an aside I wouldn't ferment it warmer than 18C as it can have overpowering appley esters. The first time I used it I fermented at 20C to get to esters going to see what they tasted like. The porter I put it in need a bit of extended conditioning to mellow the appleyness out.

Thank you for the advice. Is there any good way to reduce temperatures when fermenting? The room I ferment in seems to hang around 20C and I'm wondering if I'll be able to get it any lower as the weather is warming up.

 

[sponge_]

If you don't have a fermentation fridge, you can always pop the FV in a water bath and rotate some frozen ice packs/bottles. This is what I did for a little while before getting a fermentation fridge.

In regards to starters, it also allows you to split a pack into multiple first generation starters, saving a fair chunk of money in the long run.

 

[JapanBrew]

I didn't think you needed a starter with a smack pack. I thought that was kind of the starter. Well, activator.

 

[MyQul]

I didn't think you needed a starter with a smack pack. I thought that was kind of the starter. Well, activator.

Well technically you dont. But theyre primarily aimed at the American market so probably go from lab to HBer in 1-2 days. Over here or where you are, even if you get a freshish pack thats still within date, you dont know how it's been handled between getting from the lab to us in the UK. So I think it's best to always make a starter

 

[MyQul]

Thank you for the advice. Is there any good way to reduce temperatures when fermenting? The room I ferment in seems to hang around 20C and I'm wondering if I'll be able to get it any lower as the weather is warming up.

Try what sponge suggests. You only need to do it for about 4 days as the esters (as well as other flavour compounds) are not produced after that

 

[MrN]

Having said that, it'll probably be snowing in 2 weeks time, when I actually get round to doing the brew.

 

[MrN]

I've actually got another question relating to this. I hear the 1469 yeast can be a bit lively. I'm planning a 25l batch, using a 33l fermenter. Should this leave enough head space for the yeast to do its thing?

 

[johnnyboy1965]

You do not need to "step up" any starter yeast. You need to prove that the yeast you are using is viable
Wyeyeast Smack packs...Its already done for you..thats why it swells
Whitelabs...Make up a weak wort 1.020, pitch the vial into this, wait until it starts frothing and then pitch (anything from 4-24 hrs)
Any dried yeast (12g) Soak in warm water for 30mins and bung it in.

 

[MyQul]

I've actually got another question relating to this. I hear the 1469 yeast can be a bit lively. I'm planning a 25l batch, using a 33l fermenter. Should this leave enough head space for the yeast to do its thing?

A blow off tube is definitely advisable with this strain

 

[MrN]

Balls, I just pitched the yeast into my starter but forgot to shake the packet beforehand... I noticed too late that I'd left some sedimenty bits behind. As I'm using a starter to build the cell count anyway I'm hoping this won't be a big problem...