What do we think about the whole independence thing in general?

[Brew_DD2]

I do apologise if my previous posts were seen as glib or even offensive to our northern members.
However we all have an opinion and I will stick by mine. However possibly i explain mine a little better.
For a hundred years the 4 nations of the United Kingdom have developed, utilised and exploited national industries - rail, oil, gas, air travel / freight, postal service, NHS, defence the list goes on.
If one member was to split, it's unfair to cherry pick which parts of those industries you want to 'claim as rightfully yours' and reap those rewards as yours and charge the others to have.

So if Scotland was to steal oil, does the remaining 3 nations steal back all the subs and naval assets and open up bases in Wales and decimate billions in yearly defence income for Scotland? Same for the Northern raf bases. Or do we threaten to charge you for overflying UK airspace from your airports via the Air corridors and make you fly out to Norwegian airspace and then South just to get to europe? Maybe shut down your entire postal service? Remove you from NICE or other drugs and science services?
All of these (and many many more) are important national services that contribute, cost, enhance or degrade the 4 nations collectively. Hence my comment of you can't have your cake and eat it.
We either stay together or share it proportionally for the good or worse as separate nations. Maybe if you squint a bit then that does indeed sound a bit 'federal'... If so then I would support a federal United Kingdom.

Again, wow.

 

[Nicks90]

[stuff]
No point really talking about this to such intransigent opinionated people really.
Like trying to tell the pope being Catholic is a bit wrong.

 

[Brew_DD2]

The other big issue with oil is ownership. They are now private companies. Where are their headquarters? BP is registered as Finsbury Park London. Therefore their taxation rules are united Kingdom as present.
Whilst their oil fields may be based in "Scottish waters", their international operations and profits are registered in London. Under international law they pay UK taxes. If Scotland were to leave the UK, they would also be leaving the UK hmrc system and BP would still pay their taxes to the UK revenue. Not Scotland.

I have neither time nor the inclination to explain how much drivel you're talking, so I'll leave it there. I also have no need to explain myself privately to you.

Edit: and I also never accused you of being a little Englander, but if the label fits...

 

[Brewnaldo]

Redefining international conventions on territorial waters so that the Jocks cant have their oil

Goodness me, I thought I knew something about the internet but here we are, all learning.

 

[Brew_DD2]

[stuff]
No point really talking about this to such intransigent opinionated people really.
Like trying to tell the pope being Catholic is a bit wrong.

Look, I'm sure you're a decent guy, but I really think you've taken the wrong tack by saying the Scots can sod off with their portion of the debt accrued by Westminster, oh and we'll take the oil too. It doesn't work like that, and I really hope you know that. Threads like these end up being antagonistic, and whilst I can't speak to everyone's motives on wanting an independent Scotland, they are usually around seeking true representation and accountability from our politicians. Nothing more, nothing less.

It certainly does not come from a place of hating the English.

 

[Brewnaldo]

[stuff]
No point really talking about this to such intransigent opinionated people really.
Like trying to tell the pope being Catholic is a bit wrong.

You cant take the moral high ground after your absolutely wild takes on here.

Stsrt again from a position of reason and you might get somewhere. Rather than insulting vast swathes of people and using language like "sod off" and "crucified". You chose the narrative no one else.

 

[Pezza24]

On principle I'm all for Wales going independent but in reality I'm too tall to go down the mines so I can't see it working out too well.

 

[Random Badger]

Well, if it happens, I for one will be laughing and throwing metaphorical chips at those English people who are incandescent with anger that those in Scotland or Wales dare to break up the Union, yet only a few years earlier voted for the UK to leave the EU.

I think that in these cases, why would you stop the logic at a certain point? The knife always cuts at both sides. If people at a certain level decide that they wanted to be free of the EU, what reason would they have to stop other people to decide that they want to be free of them?

This is how I see it. Personally I'm against breaking up the UK and I was also against leaving the EU. We move forward by coming together, whereas populist, nationalist politics are all too often poisonous and divisive, appealing to patriotism and exceptionalism and driving people apart to gain power.

The irony is those who supported Brexit to gain the illusion of sovereignty (which we always had as an independent country) from the EU, who now object to the nations of the UK taking back real sovereignty from Westminster.

 

[Nicks90]

@Brewnaldo and @Brew_DD2
Happy to be proven wrong. Same as I am still waiting to be proven wrong that brexit was a good idea. Whichever Nimrod in the tories thought that one up needs a head wobble.
Stronger together and all that.

 

[Brewnaldo]

@Brewnaldo and @Brew_DD2
Happy to be proven wrong. Same as I am still waiting to be proven wrong that brexit was a good idea. Whichever Nimrod in the tories thought that one up needs a head wobble.
Stronger together and all that.

No one in the political sphere is going to take any time explaining to you why Westminster cant just take control of Scottish waters pal. Sorry, but if you think thats a possibility, then you are going to have to spend some time reaching a basic level of research before you can compel people on a forum to spend time over it with you.

 

[Polcho]

Interesting. Since it was an agreement between parties at first.
Do we think that the fair thing to do would to be to have free vote from all British people.

 

[Brew_DD2]

Interesting. Since it was an agreement between parties at first.
Do we think that the fair thing to do would to be to have free vote from all British people.

I certainly wouldn't have any issues with England having its own vote on it gaining independence from the UK. Each country has to make their own decision, and it's not for another country to decide.

 

[pilgrimhudd]

It's a simple numbers thing. Vast majority of Westminster MPs are from England, therefore Any descision made by parliament is effectively made by England.
Personally I'd be happy with a fully federated union where each of the national assemblies would have the same powers (which would cover most things) and the UK government would only rule on things like defense and international relations.

Totally agree with this.

 

[Nicks90]

No one in the political sphere is going to take any time explaining to you why Westminster cant just take control of Scottish waters pal. Sorry, but if you think thats a possibility, then you are going to have to spend some time reaching a basic level of research before you can compel people on a forum to spend time over it with you.

And your understanding of international privately owned (ie non nationalised) financial institutions, asset ownership of said private companies, their pension and hedge/investment funds, financial transactional taxes, shareholder dividends (and associated taxes) and overall company profits and corporate taxation are linked to the country it is registered in, is also lamentable. BP is registered in London on the London stock exchange. Now you go look at international financial law and see who that money will be going to.
Scotland may regain control of drilling rights for companies operating in Scottish waters, but what's the £ amount of those costs to someone like BP, compared to their overall tax liability that is currently paid to the UK government for being registered on the London se?
Oh that's right, next to F-all

As these rigs are now in Scottish waters, the existing international agreements means Scotland would be liable for the 65bn decommissioning costs of those rigs over the next 40 years. Would those meagre drilling rights even cover that? Or is Scotland going to tear up those international legal documents and become the next Nigeria and suffer the wrath of all foreign investment drying up. Bearing in mind Scotland has a higher % of foreign ownership than another other region in the UK, not a wise move.

Or is Scotland going to forcibly renationalise BP (and many others), using money from the magic money tree?

 

[Megadethmaniac]

Think people are getting a bit hot under the collar talking about tax revenues and oil. I don`t see it getting that far.

My view is that its a given that the SNP will win north of the border. Their plan is , insofar as I can see it is to vote on independence, if necessary have a wildcat vote, and rejoin the EU. They will ask for a further vote and Boris will say No. Put his foot down on the issue - once in a lifetime poll done only a few years ago.

I don`t see how the Scots can get around it then. They would have to either climb down - politically embarrassing or call the wildcat poll without Westminsters approval. They would then have to hope the EU will accept them back in. Otherwise they are out of the UK and the EU. If they were allowed to join there would be uproar in several parts of the EU. I can see Spain and France "black balling" any attempt at Scotland joining where they have left the UK via UDI as politically it would be unthinkable given internal separatist aspirations, particularly Catalan- Basque etc. Europe did n`t recognize the Catalans in similar circumstances!!!

Northern Ireland - Can`t imagine both sides agreeing on a anything as they can`t even manage to get along for long enough to decide who runs what, let alone anything else.

Wales, Whilst there is a call for independence this is no where near as developed an issue and whilst not impossible in the future do`t see it as something happening anytime soon.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

My daughter sent me this as SNP leader Nicola was at a garden centre across the road from them in Thorniebank Glasgow today. I asked if she got her autograph but she and her Scottish husband are not fans.

 

[Polcho]

According to my daughter, who is married to a really nice Scottish man, living in the Dundee area. There appears to be a bit of a slide in support of Mrs Sturgeon. She said she has seen signs on roundabouts and the like not to vote that way.
I think all this fishgate hasn’t done her much good either.
I don’t relish the idea of a break up, it will cost everybody in the long run. As Megadethmania said, the EU can’t let them join due to the same situation in France and Spain.
So essentially, they would up up the swanni. I guess the free university, free prescriptions etc would need to stop, having to pay for stuff like that, like the English probably won’t go down well.
Perhaps Boris should go down that route to sway voters, might work

 

[Brew_DD2]

All that will happen if BoJo rejects a vote is that the UK will be taken to court again. Judiciary takes a dim view of the PM doing as he pleases (see his unlawful prorogation of Parliament).

Why anyone would revel in the UK PM denying another vote, when it's looking a near-certainty that Scotland will vote in a majority pro-referendum government (the polling has been consistent on this, despite anecdote above), is completely beyond me. It would also just confirm the idea that the views of voters in Scotland matter not a jot at Westminster.

 

[Hopperty]

I live close to the border and half my family is in Northumbrland the other half in the Borders, I don't want a hard political line imposed through the middle of my world. If there has to be a split can we have it either closer to Newcastle or up near Edinburgh,

 

[clib]

I live close to the border and half my family is in Northumbrland the other half in the Borders, I don't want a hard political line imposed through the middle of my world. If there has to be a split can we have it either closer to Newcastle or up near Edinburgh,

It's not about you.