Great post Bob that highlights the fundamental problem with democracy (reportedly described by Churchill thus: "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.").
The inherent paradoxes in any government but a hardline ideology will always bubble up in the people's commentary, and the politicians' arguments.
How can a socialist pay for socialism without a strong market driven private sector paying high levels of tax? (previous socialist governments ludicrous borrowing excluded)
How can a capitalist reconcile that some services really are better served outside of a free market economy? (Electricity generation - there is only one grid, railways - there is only rail network for example)
bobsbeer said:
Sadly society does not give a **** about it's neighbour anymore. It's all about profit an me.
This sums the whole thing up for me. This is the line that is always used to bash any conservative voter. However, I see exactly that attitude in the reverse, people voting Labour because of what they'll get personally and not what it means for the country as a whole.
Working together is good. I've worked in lots of small companies which have succeeded purely because everyone "bought in" to the concept that if the company succeeded, so would they. Some people got very rich. Others who worked for it didn't, but everyone improved their lot by at least some margin. There is nothing inherently wrong with that in my book, this to me is "working together". Why is it such a hard concept to grasp that in the pursuit of improving my lot, I also improve the lot of richer people than me but also improve the lot of the company, everyone else in the company, the treasury's bank balance and in a small part, the economy at large, the prospects of other people, the UK as a whole etc etc.
I think we just have to accept that under either ideology there are fundamental problems.
On the right there is the risk of uncontrolled personal greed of those at the top repressing the aspirations of those below them in the organisation. (ex. the ludicrous greed of the eighties)
On the left there is the risk of uncontrolled personal greed of the masses demanding more and more from "the state" thereby repressing the machinery which provides the capital to run the state in the first place. (ex. the previous government and the "Sorry, there's no money left" note left for the new chief sec to the treasury)
At this point I have to conclude that if there were some method by which policies designed as pure "electioneering" (e.g. unsustainable welfare from the left, removal of protection for workers [NOTE: *NOT* workers "rights" as defined by the unions] from the right) could be eliminated by a regulatory body then we'd have a system that almost work.
Could that be part of a modernised upper house? No party politics allowed, a strict remit against which to judge if a proposed policy was in the interest of the country as a whole, was sustainable and had no element of electioneering (by which I mean the "buying of votes" that seems to be the only means by which the parties currently compete). :hmm:
I think in all honesty politics in the UK has to get back to real politics. For example I cannot abide the current "Oppose everything for opposition's sake" stance of Labour at the moment. They are even looking for excuses to oppose their own policies now being implemented by the coalition. This is not "working together". What on earth is wrong with the whole house just getting on with things that actually we all know they agree on? It's petty politics and if that's what people see from those at the top, how will they ever behave differently?
bobsbeer said:
The Tory spin machine has done a very good job at demeaning the poorest in our society.
Or the Labour spin machine has done a very good job of making you believe that's what they said.
I couldn't give two hoots about the "poorest" in our society. "Poorness" is not an indicator of capacity. "Poorness" is a state of being. Poor people can become richer people if the framework exists for them to do that and the willingness to do it exists. I'm not for a second suggesting that the framework IS there and they're all lazy, it's not. BUT, just like you say the expectations around public service have to change, so too does the expectation about jobs, pay, the labour market on the whole and entitlement to specific jobs in specific geographical locations.
The framework to support the people who ARE prepared to up-sticks and make their lot better are not supported AT ALL as far as I know. This is wrong. If people show any initiative they should be supported to make them successful. It's what successful businesses do, it's what the welfare system should do too.
The point being that "poorness" should be a choice and, indeed, who are we to tell someone that they shouldn't be poor, that poor is bad somehow? We are not at the point where poorness is a choice though, it is still currently inflicted on some and the help for some that are who do not wish to be isn't there to enable them to become not poor.
The people I do give all the hoots I have about are the "disadvantaged". Those without the capacity to change their lot. The sick, the infirm, the elderly, the disabled and such (and for the time being it also includes those can and wish to change their lot but do not have the capacity or help to change themselves to change their lot - in an ideal welfare state that segment would not exist). Some of them are "poor" and that is troubling, they should, because they cannot do it themselves, be "comfortable" at our (the "able") expense and that should never be in question. The measurement of "comfortable" will always be a problem though...